What's Odin's stake in things?

[vultur]

I noticed something re-reading Changes. Odin demonstrates the "crushing will" power on Harry, and tells Harry that "in the Lords of Outer Night, even the remnants of that power are more than you can face as you are". With the very strong implication that Harry needs to get an external power boost to resist the LoON's will.

But, in the actual confrontation, Harry's Winter Knight powers don't really seem to be involved in resisting the will of the Red King and LoON. In the first confrontation, after Harry kills Arianna, it's Bob's spiritual defense and then Murphy drawing the Sword (or maybe the archangel's pronouncement that happens then). And in the second confrontation at the very end, Harry is starting to push back - but what actually frees him is Lea killing a couple of them and distracting the others.

Also, Odin strongly hints that he can't help Harry - he says that he's no longer strong enough, and that this has to be handled by mortals. But then he shows up and fights anyway.

I mean, Harry ends up needing the Winter Knight Mantle anyway to fix his broken back. But Odin's big on foresight... if Odin had instead told Harry that Bob and the Swords could protect him from the Lords of Outer Night's will, would events have played out differently? Maybe Harry wouldn't have ended up breaking his back...

But, why does Odin want Harry to be Winter Knight? He's tied to Winter as Kringle, but that doesn't seem like enough by itself.

[groinkick]

Odin is a master strategist.  He can see the pieces arranging themselves on the chess board, and he's acting accordingly. 

[vultur]

Odin is a master strategist.  He can see the pieces arranging themselves on the chess board, and he's acting accordingly.

Oh, I agree. But acting to achieve what goal? Why does he push Harry in that direction?

With the level of foresight he presumably has, he could have steered Harry in a direction that wouldn't have had him get his back broken, in which case he likely wouldn't have absolutely needed the Winter Knight's Mantle.

And what about Molly? Did Odin already expect her to be Winter Lady? I'm thinking not, as Mab herself apparently didn't see it coming, but it is suspicious. If his only stake in it was to get the Red Court destroyed, he could have told Harry that taking Molly to Chichen Itza was a really bad idea.

[Mira]

    In a perverse way I think Odin was testing Harry, not only testing but nudging him as well into the position they need him to be in in the coming ACT.  Think about it, mortal kids are murdered all of the time in the world and Odin doesn't do much about it.  It went on even when he supposedly had more power.  So I don't think it is about lack of power on Odin's part, it is just he never has concerned himself all that much in such matters.  However testing a star child who may be the leader and lynch pin in the coming war would be.  The Powers agree I think, that Harry needs to be Winter Knight for the best future outcome..  Harry up until that point absolutely refuses to become Knight..  So Odin claims he cannot help, but "suggests"...  Still not an option as far as Harry is concerned,  it is also a test because Harry's decision making under such pressure can and will be critical.   Then he breaks his back, calls on Uriel, who happens to be working with Odin on deep background, who also says he cannot help Harry but suggests he listen to Odin at the same time assuring him if he does what he has to do out of love, his soul has a chance of not being lost.  Harry decides of the least worst of really no realistic options for himself.  They got him where they want him and in the end they all pitch in so that the battle is won.. 

[exartiem]

It could be that Odin lost a good deal of power to move to the mortal realm.  He probably couldn't take on the LOONs directly anymore, they'd gang up on him and kill him.  But he could show up and fight their minions.

Or, it could also be that the White Court aren't the only ones who like to use cat's paws.

[Mira]

It could be that Odin lost a good deal of power to move to the mortal realm.  He probably couldn't take on the LOONs directly anymore, they'd gang up on him and kill him.  But he could show up and fight their minions.

Or, it could also be that the White Court aren't the only ones who like to use cat's paws.

  I wonder if faith has anything to do with his power?  The old gods may still exist but most people do not believe in them anymore..  The power is only as good as the power of people's faith in them.  Odin has tried to adjust with the times and his form of power has evolved, but it is nothing like it used to be.

[raidem]

Well, Odin's stake in things is all about Ragnarok.  So, I presume the ultimate Ragnarok would be Outsider winning the Universe.  His forte is foresight to prevent that from happening.  Hmm, it makes me wonder what it would be like if Nemesis got a hold of Odin.

How would Harry best Nemesis Odin?  Maybe OdinRemnant would leave just a bit of an opening for Harry to take advantage in a foresight contest against himself.

[huangjimmy108]

I noticed something re-reading Changes. Odin demonstrates the "crushing will" power on Harry, and tells Harry that "in the Lords of Outer Night, even the remnants of that power are more than you can face as you are". With the very strong implication that Harry needs to get an external power boost to resist the LoON's will.

But, in the actual confrontation, Harry's Winter Knight powers don't really seem to be involved in resisting the will of the Red King and LoON. In the first confrontation, after Harry kills Arianna, it's Bob's spiritual defense and then Murphy drawing the Sword (or maybe the archangel's pronouncement that happens then). And in the second confrontation at the very end, Harry is starting to push back - but what actually frees him is Lea killing a couple of them and distracting the others.

Also, Odin strongly hints that he can't help Harry - he says that he's no longer strong enough, and that this has to be handled by mortals. But then he shows up and fights anyway.

I mean, Harry ends up needing the Winter Knight Mantle anyway to fix his broken back. But Odin's big on foresight... if Odin had instead told Harry that Bob and the Swords could protect him from the Lords of Outer Night's will, would events have played out differently? Maybe Harry wouldn't have ended up breaking his back...

But, why does Odin want Harry to be Winter Knight? He's tied to Winter as Kringle, but that doesn't seem like enough by itself.

Well, for one thing, saying that the winter mantle does not help against will attack is untrue. Against Odin, a single godly entity, Harry before the mantle can't even stand up. He lay there like a upside down turtle. With the mantle, against the entire Loa, Harry could still stand, though he can't move. The difference is quite big.

The resisttance granted by the mantle allow Harry to give a fight when he finally face off with the red king in the sacrificial chamber. Otherwise, Harry won't even stand a chance.

As for Odin making an appearance during the battle at CY despite saying that he could not help. Well, Harry ask for overt help like sending an army of einghenjars and Valkyrie. I am certain that Odin is sying the truth when he said he can't grant that kind of help. Also, we don't know what kind of rules bound immortal beings during conflict. If we pay attention, the book never actually show Odin participating in a fight. Odin open a gateway and send a bunch of grey council wizards. he is present sure, but I don't remember the book mentioning Odin actually attacking personally. So in a way, Odin indeed can't help, not directly. He can assist however. Besides, even if Odin indeed lie to Harry about not helping, it is an understandable strategy. If Harry know that Odin would come help, his attitude might change and that in turn may result in the red court discovering something. Harry going to see Odin mostly does not escape the RC intelligence network.

As for Odin wanting Harry to become winter knight. Well, in hindsight the reason should be clear. Assuming that Odin has foresight, and with him being Kringle and all, he of all people must have known about Maeve, and how the winter court are in trouble. Red court cooperating with outsiders, black council and so on. Pushing Harry to become the winter knight is, in hindsight, something Odin would do. It seems to work out splendidly. If Harry is not the winter knight, the prison of demonreach probably would have been breached. In his place, with all his knowledge and foresight, he has all the reason to push Harry to become the winter knight.   

[groinkick]

But, why does Odin want Harry to be Winter Knight? He's tied to Winter as Kringle, but that doesn't seem like enough by itself.

There are those in the White Council who want to kill Harry because they think he's so dangerous (Warden, Paranet, possible warlock).  Per woj one of the things that have stopped them is because Harry is the Winter Knight, and they don't want to have to answer to Mab.  So Odin may have seen that Harry's life was in danger from the Council, and he helped move Harry into a position that would grant him a form of protection.

He also probably knew that one day Harry might want to remove the Mantle without dying.  Odin may have a way and now is in a position to offer Harry a way out if he grants him a favor.

[Mira]

There are those in the White Council who want to kill Harry because they think he's so dangerous (Warden, Paranet, possible warlock).  Per woj one of the things that have stopped them is because Harry is the Winter Knight, and they don't want to have to answer to Mab.  So Odin may have seen that Harry's life was in danger from the Council, and he helped move Harry into a position that would grant him a form of protection.

He also probably knew that one day Harry might want to remove the Mantle without dying.  Odin may have a way and now is in a position to offer Harry a way out if he grants him a favor.

What stopped them before he became Winter Knight?   That didn't happen until Changes.

[raidem]

Per woj one of the things that have stopped them is because Harry is the Winter Knight, and they don't want to have to answer to Mab.

Yeah, I'm reminded of the WOJL.  I also got the impression that there were some wizards at play against Mab, or at least against her interests.  They lost. And, they don't want to antagonize her anymore by going after Harry. Like, Right now, for now.  I think they feel 'safe' as long as they don't cross her more.

[groinkick]

What stopped them before he became Winter Knight?   That didn't happen until Changes.

Just repeating Jim's words. 

Them being worried about Dresden, and considering getting rid of him isn't the same as carrying it out.  Now it's too late.

[Bacchus]

It could be that Odin lost a good deal of power to move to the mortal realm.  He probably couldn't take on the LOONs directly anymore, they'd gang up on him and kill him.  But he could show up and fight their minions.

but he doesn't seem to have lost any of his knowledge and hes the one who taught OG merlin the demon reach creation level magic wasn't he?
And he seems to have retained the king of the gods level information network through his raven things and other spies
       So he cant stand toe to toe against them but he could cheat so bad in fights he would make Dresden's tricks seem like a 2 year old. I would guess that he might not be that far from  harry's demonreach inteliectus but everywhere when you combine all that and extra mantles and the senior council level powerups he probably has stashed away after doing his thing with  freedom to act for a long time.

Now to the main thing. Ive wanted to mention this for a while now.
If you think it through being the winter knight is great for Dresden.
Everyone gets way to hung up on Mab being unlikeable and ignores the big picture.

Think back through every single thing Mab has had Dresden do and they're all things he would have wanted to do anyway but couldn't have pulled it off on his own.
           Lets see Mab ordered him to stop a Faye war she couldn't stop on her own that would have at least sent civilization back to the stone age.   um yeah how dare she.
           Some very convoluted plot which resulted in molly not being executed and a major blow against the  red vampires. once again how dare she.
          She gives him the magic muscle and even coordinates allies for him to completely destroy the red court and save himself, blackstalf,maggie, maybe the Wraiths.
         Orders him to help in a plot that ultimately stopped marcone or the archive from becoming a denarian.
gets him to stop the outsiders from destroying the universe, and gets rid of 2 n-fected high positions and the summer lady whos too stupid to be a leader during the Apocalypse.
        gets him to stop the denarians from getting a massive power up and gets him the massive power up and a few mill in diamonds.
         has the leanshe kill thousands of things that try to come through the never never to kill him, Also has her watch over him very closely since he was born. Has the leanshe protect then hand over all of the knowledge of the ways from Maggie SR.
( the leanshe is COMPLETELY loyal remember.   Her actions are supported by Mab.

Mab seems to be preparing to lead earth through apocalyptic level dangers and Dresden is becoming her main problem solver.

Why wouldn't Odin push harry towards that?


Harry always rushes at things with no thoughts to the danger.
        The winter court has always been watching and insuring its possible for him to win his various fights.

Also in case you missed it Mab seemed to want or at least be fine with a romantic relationship between Dresden and her daughter whom she was grooming for power.with Molly as the backup so no shes not going to kill dresden for something minor.

 She has a crazy amount invested in him by now.
 It seems from my point of view that Mab has been viciously protective of Dresden even too the point of ignoring all her duties and risking all out war with summer to keep Dresden's body alive.
which means keeping Dresden alive was more important to her than losing 6 -9 of time when she has a LOT on her plate.

Yes she acts very mean to him. That is necessity to shape him into someone who will be able to survive what she knows is coming.

[Bacchus]

Odin may have a way and now is in a position to offer Harry a way out if he grants him a favor.

Maybe but,

wild guess here. Could Mab molly or mother winter just release him from service. any tricks Odin knows one of them should also know.
1 Mab needs Dresden for whats to come.
2 His lack of loyalty is causing her big problems.
3 sometime in the next 4 books he will realise that the world could very well end before Maggie is old enough for college.
4 harry could just go to Mab and offer her complete loyalty for the duration of the whatever it is and in return he keeps his soul and gets to retire back to plain wizardness if they all survive.

Mab is very practical about these things ya know.
 and she doesn't seem to be a fan of having strong knights around long term anyway.

[Bacchus]

he could have told Harry that taking Molly to Chichen Itza was a really bad idea.

    Was it a bad idea to someone with foresight?
            Didn't that lead to a chain of events which Molly went from a relative weakling to a major power and who knows where she will end up?
She was going to keep jumping into every fight and  Dresden didn't train her well enough for that. Now she can survive them and her dieing wont turn Dresden to the dark side of the force.