WAG.... Murphy has moved on

[groinkick]

Actually pretty sure Jim addressed this issue.  Harry's back was healed as was part of the deal.  What happened to Harry was Mab reminding him of what she can do.  It's not the first time either.  When she acquired his debts (before he became Winter Knight) she was able to make him stab his own hand.

[Mira]

I think y'all got it backwards.

I don't think breaking winter law "undid" the back healing.

I think what happened there was Mab going, "If you break winter law, I will put you right back how I found you." I.e., that she possesses the power over him to just break him again if she wishes.

Believe it or not, I agree, this is exactly what I think happened.   I also believe that Mab is tricky enough not to tell Harry the last bit about being able to break his back again if she wanted to.. That way he'd think being Winter Knight is the only thing holding his back together.

[huangjimmy108]

I agree about the injury. Placebo effect won't work with severed nerves.
Another possibility is that she installed a magical bypass to connect the nerves of the spine while it heals itself over 40 or 50 years. In that case, screw winter law = screw winter magic = magical bypass temporarily fails.

If it is your ordinary magical fix, cold iron under the skin should nullify it.

It does not happened that way though.

Iron under the skin give Harry a lot of pain, but he is not paralyse or lose all feeling on the lower body parts.

If it is indeed just a magical bypass, it is something beyond the normal rules.

[huangjimmy108]

*rolls eyes*

Yes, because that's what Butters needs. More Powerups.

It's not enough that he's a Magitech Jedi Batman MMORPG Protagonist.

KoTC don't really needs powerups anyway. KoTC works for TWG and TWG is all the power anyone could need.

Have faith. stay within the rules and know your limits. Follow the above 3 and a KoTC can hardly fail.

What cause a KoTC to fail is never power, it is judgement, wisdom and faith. Maybe love and courage too, but it is never about power or ability.

[Kindler]

If it is your ordinary magical fix, cold iron under the skin should nullify it.

It does not happened that way though.

Iron under the skin give Harry a lot of pain, but he is not paralyse or lose all feeling on the lower body parts.

If it is indeed just a magical bypass, it is something beyond the normal rules.

Good point. Harry's nailed several times in Cold Days, which costs him the pain-nullification benefit of his Mantle, yet he can still move his legs (you know, if he wasn't blinded by pain).

[Mr. Death]

I don't think Michael physically healed Harry at all. His arm's still busted, after all. I think all he did there was drive Tessa away.

[Kindler]

I don't think Michael physically healed Harry at all. His arm's still busted, after all. I think all he did there was drive Tessa away.

That's the impression I got. What Michael says during that scene is "Lava quod est sordium." Roughly translated from an amateur, it's essentially "Cleanse that which is unclean." Literally translated, it's "Wash the dirt/filth." That got rid of the Tessabugs. It's followed up with simple faith magic/prayer, which calms Harry and buys him enough time to put his pain blocks back up.

[raidem]

I don't think Michael physically healed Harry at all. His arm's still busted, after all. I think all he did there was drive Tessa away.

That is a good point.  I was thinking that Michael had inadvertently healed Harry's back, but if he didn't heal Harry's arm then he most likely didn't heal his back either.  And yes, that was the time I was referring to when Michael cleansed Harry from Tessa.

I do wonder what the knock down effects having Uriel's Grace within Michael will have, and having Michael exercising it, sometimes on Harry, sometime against Tessa and others.  One could argue that had Tessa been nemfected, Michael's pronouncement and curing healed Tessa from nemesis nemfection.  We do know Uriel had multiple reasons why he gave up his Grace. I mean, Harry figured it a big deal.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Nemesis had an agent in Skin Game.

[groinkick]

I do wonder what the knock down effects having Uriel's Grace within Michael will have, and having Michael exercising it

If he'd stepped out of bounds the grace would have fallen.  They can only balance the scales, they cannot proactively unbalance them I don't think. 

[raidem]

See. I think Michael was allowed free will. And he could use his free will with the Grace, while Uriel couldn't even do that.  Therefore, I see that Michael having the Grace and being in that position has more flexibility than had it reside in Uriel.  So, Uriel counted on achieving more with it than he could have done by himself. Of course, the immediate use was to heal Michael so as to allow him to intervene successfully against Nic. I think though Uriel needed to have his Grace on the mission to Hades realm.

[Mira]

See. I think Michael was allowed free will. And he could use his free will with the Grace, while Uriel couldn't even do that.  Therefore, I see that Michael having the Grace and being in that position has more flexibility than had it reside in Uriel.  So, Uriel counted on achieving more with it than he could have done by himself. Of course, the immediate use was to heal Michael so as to allow him to intervene successfully against Nic. I think though Uriel needed to have his Grace on the mission to Hades realm.

Michael has free will because he is a human, while one could argue that he could do anything he wanted with the Grace, he didn't..  It was matter of trust on Uriel and by extension God's part that he wouldn't abuse that trust.. As Uriel put it, paraphrasing, Uriel handed over his 747 jet power Grace so Michael could use the overhead light,  both he and God trusted Michael to use only the over head light..  Anything more could cause Uriel to fall, and possibly Michael with him because of the trust violation.. Michael did not violate that trust, so the answer is no, Michael did not use Uriel's Grace to heal Harry's back, though he had the free will to do so, or not...

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, the question is -- would Uriel have fallen if Michael used Uriel's power in a way normally limited by the rules, or would Uriel have only fallen if Michael used Uriel's power in a way that is counter to Uriel's nature?

[raidem]

Mr. Death gets it in delineating the issue.

I think Michael could use Uriel's power in a way normally limited by the rules without harming the Grace and subsequently Uriel.  And, I think Michael's free will with the Grace allowed him to do things that Uriel could not do.  That said, Michael was very careful in limiting his actions while holding the Grace so trying to tease out Uriel's strategy with the Grace is a bit difficult. The most likely event is that Michael attempted to convince Nic not to sacrifice his daughter when he gave he "GraceSpeak" upon entering Hades.  And then Michael further attempted to get Nic to see what the Fallen had made him sacrifice.  Each act was consistent with either Grace, or Knight of the Cross.  But it could be that Uriel would have been unable to intervene with the discourse perhaps?

[peregrine]

Part of the thing may be that Michael has the power but not the knowledge to use it.  We see something like that in The Warrior, but it's possible that Michael could have used Uriel's power to do something that he thinks is right, and that even seems like the proper thing to do, but has unforeseen consequences or violates some of the more subtle rules governing it.

[Mira]

Part of the thing may be that Michael has the power but not the knowledge to use it.  We see something like that in The Warrior, but it's possible that Michael could have used Uriel's power to do something that he thinks is right, and that even seems like the proper thing to do, but has unforeseen consequences or violates some of the more subtle rules governing it.

Exactly, or Michael says what power he has come from the Almighty working through him.  As to the Grace, it is very specific in Skin Game, Michael was loaned Uriel's Grace for a specific job, no coloring outside the lines no matter what good he might have done doing that.  Michael understands that and he'd not abuse that no matter how much good he thinks he could accomplish doing it..  It is like when he was still an active Holy Knight, as much as he might be tempted to go ahead and kill a Denarian that has surrendered at his feet, even one who deserves it, he won't because that breaks the rules for the Sword and for Holy Knights.  His place if one surrenders is not to judge but to let the Denarian go to seek or not redemption in the life remaining to him or her.  A violation of that has serious consequences, i.e. the possible breaking of a Holy Sword...  A violation of the terms of taking up Uriel's Grace is the same thing, in this case the fall of an archangel would be the consequence.