WAG.... Murphy has moved on

[WereElephant]

I think Mother Winter will end up dying too.  I mean her dying is much more powerful at stakes type of event than even Mab.

We do have a WOJ about one of the Mother's dying/changing and its result on the Fae.  He was talking though with respect to the abdication I believe of the last Mother Summer, or possibly the theoretical changing of that position in the future.

Depending on Mother Winter's relationship with the concept of Death (Dresden mentioned when summoning her that she was about as close to that persona as many thought you could get), she might not be able to die, even on Halloween. What is dead cannot die, anyone?

If possible, I do think it likely, primarily based on my analysis of Cowl's agenda. Either leading up to or within the BAT, I'm expecting some massive infrastructure changes and destabilizations in the supernatural realm. The Faerie Courts might go the way of the Aesir and Vanir, leaving the defense of reality to new players. Assuming, of course, that reality survives.

[Kindler]

And born out of apparently irrational hatred of a character. Murphy = Mab, even if I'm tired of seeing it, at least doesn't have that kind of needless derogation behind it....

*more stuff I cut because it's a bit of a wall of text*

An eloquent articulation of how I feel about both topics.

Mostly, it's not that I'm a fan of Murphy, it's that there is a very, almost absurdly specific interpretation of her actions throughout the series that leads to people painting her as a villain, or not supportive of the guy she promised to walk into Hades for, or who took up a holy Sword on a suicide mission to attack what appeared to be the entire Red Court, or who... you get the idea. It's like anything she does that's positive is interpreted negatively, or gets selfish motivations ascribed to it, or she's otherwise blamed for not knowing everything Harry does, or treated as though her own thoughts and emotions shouldn't matter to the choices she makes.

I mean, we get it, and we all agree: she broke the Sword. That likely could've been avoided if she could see the future. But bringing it along wasn't arrogance, it was for two reasons: first, she wanted to protect Harry. Second, she decided to bring it after they met the Genoskwa, and she saw him toss Harry across the warehouse, shrug off Harry's magic like it was nothing, and essentially kick his butt without trying. She realized that they needed a different weapon to deal with him, so she brought the Sword. She was wrong; the weapon they needed was Goodman Grey, but she didn't know he was on The Team. Even he wasn't able to finish it off.

Anyway, I will likely never agree with some people here about Murphy. I think she's a good character who's demonstrated she's on Harry's side more times than I can count, and remains one of the only people in Harry's life who is willing to tell him he's wrong.

Also, come on, guys: Jim is not going to end their relationship within one book of it finally starting, not after twenty years of buildup. Give it until Body Slam at the very least, cuz Murphy probably won't be in Mirror, Mirror much.

[groinkick]

Depending on Mother Winter's relationship with the concept of Death (Dresden mentioned when summoning her that she was about as close to that persona as many thought you could get), she might not be able to die, even on Halloween. What is dead cannot die, anyone?

If possible, I do think it likely, primarily based on my analysis of Cowl's agenda. Either leading up to or within the BAT, I'm expecting some massive infrastructure changes and destabilizations in the supernatural realm. The Faerie Courts might go the way of the Aesir and Vanir, leaving the defense of reality to new players. Assuming, of course, that reality survives.

If she can "lose" her Walking Stick, if it's painful for her to move to the mortal realm without it I'd guess she can be killed.  She's not omnipotent.  She's just lots, and lots of Mantles making her insanely powerful, but still not invincible.  Of course if it would take the entire White Council to maybe stand a chance against Mab on Earth, and Mab is but a stone to a mountain by comparison it gives you an idea of what would be required to take on Mother Winter....

[Arjan]

An eloquent articulation of how I feel about both topics.

Mostly, it's not that I'm a fan of Murphy, it's that there is a very, almost absurdly specific interpretation of her actions throughout the series that leads to people painting her as a villain, or not supportive of the guy she promised to walk into Hades for, or who took up a holy Sword on a suicide mission to attack what appeared to be the entire Red Court, or who... you get the idea. It's like anything she does that's positive is interpreted negatively, or gets selfish motivations ascribed to it, or she's otherwise blamed for not knowing everything Harry does, or treated as though her own thoughts and emotions shouldn't matter to the choices she makes.

I mean, we get it, and we all agree: she broke the Sword. That likely could've been avoided if she could see the future. But bringing it along wasn't arrogance, it was for two reasons: first, she wanted to protect Harry. Second, she decided to bring it after they met the Genoskwa, and she saw him toss Harry across the warehouse, shrug off Harry's magic like it was nothing, and essentially kick his butt without trying. She realized that they needed a different weapon to deal with him, so she brought the Sword. She was wrong; the weapon they needed was Goodman Grey, but she didn't know he was on The Team. Even he wasn't able to finish it off.

Anyway, I will likely never agree with some people here about Murphy. I think she's a good character who's demonstrated she's on Harry's side more times than I can count, and remains one of the only people in Harry's life who is willing to tell him he's wrong.

And that is exactly the problem. Telling Harry he is wrong is called lecturing. It is a sign of arrogance and it implies you don't understand Harry. Nobody should say Harry is wrong, it will only undermine his confidence. It shows you don't love Harry. It is actually a sign you are trying to undermine Harry. You are evil, you should die in the next book. It is better for you.

Also, come on, guys: Jim is not going to end their relationship within one book of it finally starting, not after twenty years of buildup. Give it until Body Slam at the very least, cuz Murphy probably won't be in Mirror, Mirror much.

[raidem]

Mother Winter isn't death.   And she can abdicate, then move on like the previous Mother Summer did.

I'd like to see Mother Winter go down, cuz you know it would be EPIC.  And you know if she went down she'd take out a huge amount of BADS with her.  I don't have as much emotions tied up with her though.

[Arjan]

Mother Winter isn't death.   And she can abdicate, then move on like the previous Mother Summer did.

I'd like to see Mother Winter go down, cuz you know it would be EPIC.

Is this to prepare the Molly-Harry ship? Because I think Molly as winter queen shoul invite Carlos to make a few changelings.

[Avernite]

Is this to prepare the Molly-Harry ship? Because I think Molly as winter queen shoul invite Carlos to make a few changelings.

I dunno, I think being beaten close to death would end Carlos' interest in that idea.

[groinkick]

I dunno, I think being beaten close to death would end Carlos' interest in that idea.

I think you underestimate what some men are willing to go through for the right woman lol.

[huangjimmy108]

When I did say that, I did not mean things like "Murphy = Mab," because I'm extremely confident that such theories are nowhere near anything that Butcher actually has planned for the series, and I don't take them remotely seriously enough to think they'd actually have any bearing at all on the books.

I'm more thinking, "I hope he doesn't kill off Murphy, because we'll never heard the end of it from the people who hate her."

Actually, I don't really mind if JB decided to kill Murphy off, unlikely though the possibility is.

There is a BAT in the future. The 'A' stands for "Appocalyptic". When the apocalypse comes, nobody is truly safe.

As long as her death and the aftermath is done properly, it is fine withme me. As long as it is not something silly like: Murphy taking up a Denarian coin or Murphy is a Nemesis agent all along, or Molly becomes Harry's love interest within a week after Murphy's death and so on.

As long as it is not something stupid and out of character like that, it is fine with me.

[Arjan]

You forgot Murphy was really goodman gray’s father since ghost story

[raidem]

You forgot Murphy was really goodman gray’s father einde ghost story

Who had that WAG?

Is this to prepare the Molly-Harry ship? Because I think Molly as winter queen shoul invite Carlos to make a few changelings.

I'm really not a Ship person, other than Harry/Murphy.  I'm just saying a Winter Queen that hasn't changed in recorded human history is bound to change.

[Mira]

 She is the original Leprechaun Queen, she is going to trade in her diamonds for a huge pot of gold and to to live by a stream somewhere in Ireland...  There she plans to wreck havoc with Brexit..

[Arjan]

Who had that WAG?

I just made that one up. If it sounds like something discussed here earlier then that tells you something about Murphy bashing on this board.

I'm really not a Ship person, other than Harry/Murphy.  I'm just saying a Winter Queen that hasn't changed in recorded human history is bound to change.

It is something to talk about until the next book but when either mother winter or Mab goes down Molly will become winter queen at the worst possible moment. Probably at the start of the Apocalypse or something like that. Molly takes her duties seriously so she will be busy..

[raidem]

OK.

One of my WAG's that correspond with Ms. Duck's is that the Molly who screwed over Carlos in her dealing with him in the short story, accidentally though they were, ends up the same Mab that sent her on the mission.  This of course diverges from my Mab/Murphy theory.  But with this WAG, Molly's promise to Carlos and statements to the effect that she wouldn't leave him alone binds her future Mab self to remain with him.

Today, I was thinking about Babylon 5 a bit.  We know Jim was watching much of it while writing plotting out the series.  In Babylon 5, there is emphasis placed on "the One".  It turns out this "the One" actually is a trinity of people: Sinclair, Delenn, Sheridan.  The one who was, who is, who will be.  We have it established that the Queens are also divided by this division. I'm wondering if "the One" idea will end up playing a part in the Dresden Files.  I mean we could have "the One" being a trinity of Starborn.  Or, a trinity of Mab's affecting the mantle at any one time. Or just "the One" being a trinity of Fae Queens.  It should be noted however that this "the One" identity is tied up in a time traveling plot whereby one of "the One" goes back into the past 1000 years ago.  This would be similar to my idea that Murphy becomes Mab; or similar to Ms. Duck's theory that Molly becomes Mab.

[Mira]

Today, I was thinking about Babylon 5 a bit.  We know Jim was watching much of it while writing plotting out the series.  In Babylon 5, there is emphasis placed on "the One".  It turns out this "the One" actually is a trinity of people: Sinclair, Delenn, Sheridan.  The one who was, who is, who will be.  We have it established that the Queens are also divided by this division. I'm wondering if "the One" idea will end up playing a part in the Dresden Files.  I mean we could have "the One" being a trinity of Starborn.  Or, a trinity of Mab's affecting the mantle at any one time. Or just "the One" being a trinity of Fae Queens.  It should be noted however that this "the One" identity is tied up in a time traveling plot whereby one of "the One" goes back into the past 1000 years ago.  This would be similar to my idea that Murphy becomes Mab; or similar to Ms. Duck's theory that Molly becomes Mab.

Babylon 5's story was altered somewhat because of Michael O'Hare leaving the show after the first season.  JMS had to scramble to rewrite and did a good job of it, but personally I think it would have been even better if he had been able to keep to the original arc.  There were quite a few rumors not all of them kind as to why Mr O'Hare left the show.   The real reason was finally revealed a couple of years after his death, apparently he suffered from some form of mental illness that was difficult to control, his acting career was more or less ended by it.  It also explains his odd behavior at the few scifi cons he attended as a guest..  Very sad...