WAG.... Murphy has moved on

[Arjan]

All you seem to do here anymore Arjan is troll idea's you don't like...
*vehemently disagree, argue evidence to the contrary, ignore them, ect. Don't sit there and make tasteless jokes on people's idea's as a way to cut at them.

I sometimes make a joke when the situation calls for it, that is all. There is no malice in it. Do not take it too seriously. Concentrate on the things you like.

[raidem]

I liked the joke.

[Mira]

Everyone who thinks saving that wood and steel is more important than saving Harry and Waldo makes that same mistake.

  You miss the point of the carefully crafted set up, that is why as he beat the crap out of her, Nic took such pleasure in taunting her.  Neither Harry nor Butters were ever really in danger, Nic wasn't going to jeopardize his deal with Mab.  Harry saw through it, but wasn't able to warn Murphy not to attack.  Nobody is saying that life is less important than steel, but truth was, she wasn't saving anyone, she let herself be tricked and she went right where Nic wanted her to go.   

Which brings us to the important decision and that is not what she did when Nicodemus did his mock surrender, she knew she was not knight material and that she would place saving Harry above saving a denarian soul. The important decisions were bringing the sword and risking it to save lives. That decision was made earlier.

Yes, she knew, but she was also arrogant, so arrogant as to think she knew better than Harry, or even God...  She was self proclaimed custodian,  not the custodian..  For the sake of argument lets go along with she was bringing the Sword to wield herself in spite of the danger she would put it in because with it she could save lives... But if that was the real intention, the opposite would have happened...  1] After the Sword broke, Nic would have beaten her to death, not just cripple her, oh he may have had Harry's skull crushed in front of her first.. No lives would have been saved..

After that all her decisions were made under heavy pressure and she was following her nature. she did what she thought was best and she achieved a lot. She saved the day. She deserves recognition for that. Especially since I did not really read a better action plan here and we had years to think about it, she had to decide immediately.

No, she didn't save the day, she merely was played and got a Sword broken..

[huangjimmy108]

  You miss the point of the carefully crafted set up, that is why as he beat the crap out of her, Nic took such pleasure in taunting her.  Neither Harry nor Butters were ever really in danger, Nic wasn't going to jeopardize his deal with Mab.  Harry saw through it, but wasn't able to warn Murphy not to attack.  Nobody is saying that life is less important than steel, but truth was, she wasn't saving anyone, she let herself be tricked and she went right where Nic wanted her to go.   

Yes, she knew, but she was also arrogant, so arrogant as to think she knew better than Harry, or even God...  She was self proclaimed custodian,  not the custodian..  For the sake of argument lets go along with she was bringing the Sword to wield herself in spite of the danger she would put it in because with it she could save lives... But if that was the real intention, the opposite would have happened...  1] After the Sword broke, Nic would have beaten her to death, not just cripple her, oh he may have had Harry's skull crushed in front of her first.. No lives would have been saved..

No, she didn't save the day, she merely was played and got a Sword broken..

After the sword broke and Murphy is injured and Harry captured, technically speaking Nick already won the day. After he thinks that he has won, Nick, as all villain, most likely falls into the same problem all villains has. Gloating.

It is also need to be remembered that the dinarians thrive on pain and suffering. Killing Murphy is good, but milking all the pain, suffering and despair out of her and Harry is even better. The fallen feeds on it. Ft. Forthill mention this to Harry in book 5. The pain and suffering of those who stood up against the fallen are especially delicious. If you haven't notice, Murphy fit the description perfectly. Nick or maybe Anduriel is eating their meal. That is why Murphy is not killed outright.

In Nick's eyes there is no risk to it. All possible threat has been neutralize. It is checkmate already. Nick not killing Murphy immedietly is understandable. As a matter of fact, it is not just understandable, it is typical. It is just Nick milking all the profits out of the incident.

How the hell could he know that Uriel and Michael will come up with lending the grace of an Archangel and foil him? It is a classic example of a predator being the weakest when it is feeding. Nick's guard is down, his arrogance is at max and Michael and Uriel take advantage of the fact.

[Arjan]

  You miss the point of the carefully crafted set up, that is why as he beat the crap out of her, Nic took such pleasure in taunting her.  Neither Harry nor Butters were ever really in danger, Nic wasn't going to jeopardize his deal with Mab.  Harry saw through it, but wasn't able to warn Murphy not to attack.  Nobody is saying that life is less important than steel, but truth was, she wasn't saving anyone, she let herself be tricked and she went right where Nic wanted her to go.   

To believe that you have to believe Nicodemus gloating which was not designed to deliver truth but to do maximum harm. It was part of the beating. Such stuff is always never completely true. It just has to be the most negative story that is even remotely plausible at the moment. Plausible for someone who is beaten down anyway.

Nicodemus is always lying somehow and here the motives for his lying pile up. You can be sure his explanation of the facts is wrong, you only have to find out how.

Yes, she knew, but she was also arrogant, so arrogant as to think she knew better than Harry, or even God... 

That is just slander inspired by Nicodemus gloating. She was desperate to make something out of a hopeless situation and that was why she took the sword. And she did. It ended badly for her but that means it ended up beter for everyone else.

Nicodemus would have gotten something out of it, Butters actions made that unavoidable. The question was what and Murphy's actions decided that. The problem for Nicodemus was that he could not choose, was too gready to consolidate his gains. So he fell for the even greater sausage that was held before his nose.

Nicodemus is not really that smartbut he is always better informed than people think. His nature is used again and again against him. He lies more than necessary. Do not believe him.

To understand Murphy's actions you have to place yourself in her shoes with her knowledge. That can not be done by someone who believes Nicodemus lies because they only paint a caricature of Murphy. And the first thing Nicodemus lies about is motivation because Nicodemus can not understand Murphy's motivation for the same reason he can not understand Harry's.

She was self proclaimed custodian,  not the custodian..  For the sake of argument lets go along with she was bringing the Sword to wield herself in spite of the danger she would put it in because with it she could save lives... But if that was the real intention, the opposite would have happened...  1] After the Sword broke, Nic would have beaten her to death, not just cripple her, oh he may have had Harry's skull crushed in front of her first.. No lives would have been saved..

No, she didn't save the day, she merely was played and got a Sword broken..

She was the de facto custodian. Harry gave the swords to her. If you have the swords in your possession you are responsible for them as long as you can not give that responsibility to someone else. She could not give the swords back to Harry in Cold Days for obvious reasons as was foreshadowed by Sanya so she was stuck with them. She just did her best as everyone should have done.

She was actually not a bad custodian. She kept the swords from Harry when that was necessary and brought Amorachius to Michaels home, exactly the place where it was needed.

And Nicodemus did not really wanted to kill Murphy, he wanted to kill Harry in such a way that Mab was still bound to help him rob Hades. If that failed he wanted to weaken Harry for the rest of the game and the beating and gloating served that purpose better than killing her.

But the main problem for Nicodemus is that he wanted more, more and more and could not choose. Those choices were made for him. It was not a carefully designed masterplan, he did not predict Butters spying, it was improvisation.

[TheCuriousFan]

I'm not sure why you guys are still doing these. You know everyone who will argue for either side, you've seen the arguments from them a dozen times and replied with your own arguments and it never goes anywhere. Are you all just too stubborn to quit?

[huangjimmy108]

I'm not sure why you guys are still doing these. You know everyone who will argue for either side, you've seen the arguments from them a dozen times and replied with your own arguments and it never goes anywhere. Are you all just too stubborn to quit?

There is no better alternative. Since book 16 has not been release for so long, we are running out of interesting material to discuss.

The issue of Murphy is about the only thing that can still garner some interest.

I only log in to this forum these last 2 days after missing for almost 3 months. I lurk for a few minutes during every other weeks and I discover that Murphy's issue is about the only thing that can drag a thread for more than 5 pages.

It is better than total absence.

[groinkick]

I'm not sure why you guys are still doing these. You know everyone who will argue for either side, you've seen the arguments from them a dozen times and replied with your own arguments and it never goes anywhere. Are you all just too stubborn to quit?

Well it's been 12 pages of mostly polite discussion.  People are active, and involved.  I prefer that to the place being empty, and not much talk at all.

[groinkick]

Now I know that most people don't believe in the theory of Murphy being Mab.  That being said does anyone else find it curious that Murphy, and her sister have a messed up relationship similar to Mab, and Titania? Mab and Titania's fallout was over a man.  Murphy's ex husband married her younger sister (That has got to cause friction).  Not saying there is a connection, although it is I dunno, weird.  Kind of like Harry's path seems similar to Merlin's. 

[huangjimmy108]

Now I know that most people don't believe in the theory of Murphy being Mab.  That being said does anyone else find it curious that Murphy, and her sister have a messed up relationship similar to Mab, and Titania? Mab and Titania's fallout was over a man.  Murphy's ex husband married her younger sister (That has got to cause friction).  Not saying there is a connection, although it is I dunno, weird.  Kind of like Harry's path seems similar to Merlin's.

Murphy is Mab is a bit far fetch for my taste. Murphy taking up the mantle of one of the queens of faerie in the future however, well that is worth contemplating.

If Murphy continue to stay around Harry, she might be dragged into the political power struggles of the fae realms. She already garnered some attention from Gard, and by extention Vadderung. Which menat she is in Kringgle's radar and if Mab does not at least notice her, Mab is an idiot and an idiot Mab is not.

I think the only reason why Murphy is not yet dragged into the whirlpool is maybe due to her position as the sword's custodian. She is TWG's half employee so to speak. Her pure vanilla status also prevents many macanations thrown her way. In many ways, vanilla is rather protected in the DV.

This is why I never wanted Murphy to be in the frontlines in future books, and try to avoid greater powers like Mab as much as possible. Without a power up, Murphy going to the frontlines is courting death.

Besides, with Butters gone and taking up knight duties, there is a vaccume in the logistics, research and intelligence areas of team Dresden. Murphy is the right person for the job. Connecting and communicating with the powers of the government is another important duty. Murphy herself may be out of the force, but the Murphy clan is not. If Harry ever play outside of Chicago, the Murphy clan can be extremely useful.

It is predicted that the supernatural will end up going out of the closet, either during the BAT or before the BAT. The events after changes and during GS already strains the limits of mortal willingness to ignore the supernatural. When this happens, having someone familiar with the government, someone who's clan has many members inside the system, that  will be a major boon.

It is best that Murphy does not die before that.

[peregrine]

I'm not sure why you guys are still doing these. You know everyone who will argue for either side, you've seen the arguments from them a dozen times and replied with your own arguments and it never goes anywhere. Are you all just too stubborn to quit?

The alternative is to not challenge someone when they put forward something that is not just wrong but patently false.

[Arjan]

The alternative is to not challenge someone when they put forward something that is not just wrong but patently false.

And clearly not a joke. If it was a joke I would just laugh and maybe just improve it or counter it with a different one, there is not enough humor here lately.

[raidem]

Murphy is Mab is a bit far fetch for my taste. Murphy taking up the mantle of one of the queens of faerie in the future however, well that is worth contemplating.

Well that is part of my theory about Murphy becoming Mab at some point in the future rather than the past. I do allow for that, instead of her being Mab currently.  I also allow for her to be Mab in some alternate reality that will at some point converge with our story.

If Murphy continue to stay around Harry, she might be dragged into the political power struggles of the fae realms. She already garnered some attention from Gard, and by extention Vadderung. Which menat she is in Kringgle's radar and if Mab does not at least notice her, Mab is an idiot and an idiot Mab is not.

Murphy was at Arctis Tor. Murphy is Harry's love interest. Murphy was close to Harry from the get go of Storm Front. Murphy participated in the assault and destruction of the Red Court while wielding a Knight of the Cross fully wielding the powers of Heaven.  Murphy killed Maeve. Murphy accompanied Harry as his second which Mab required as part of the deal in Skin Game that there be a 2nd to accompany Harry then.  There is no chance Mab isn't aware of Murphy and has no plans for her.

So, what is Mab's plan for Murphy?

They were in the same room together with an unconscious Mac in Cold Days.  I believe they were either in the cottage or the shelter of the old lighthouse, most likely the latter.  I'd find it difficult to believe Mab didn't notice Murphy then.

Now I know that most people don't believe in the theory of Murphy being Mab.

There may be some type of intellectus going on where Mab/notMurphy knows that a Mab/Murphy exists in some past/present/future/alternate reality and there is feedback occurring by the existence of this Mab/Murphy existing out there somewhere.  Perhaps what I'm picking up in perceived ironies/foreshadowing is not necessarily that Murphy=Mab but rather that somewhere at sometime Murphy=Mab and it is affecting our Mab.

The same may be argued for Ms. Duck's theory about Mab/Molly.

I still prefer the Mab/Murphy theory though as it allows better ironies.  The wierd thing though is why would Murphy want to name her kid Maeve?  And wouldn't she know that she would already get infected. 

Perhaps she already knew the fate but did everything to prevent it and thought she had succeeded but only to have failed.

[Mr. Death]

And clearly not a joke. If it was a joke I would just laugh and maybe just improve it or counter it with a different one, there is not enough humor here lately.

And born out of apparently irrational hatred of a character. Murphy = Mab, even if I'm tired of seeing it, at least doesn't have that kind of needless derogation behind it.

No, what we have happening is a clear, consistent campaign of character assassination built on misinterpretations at best and outright falsehoods at worst. It manifests in attempts to remove any and all credit from Murphy for her genuine accomplishments ("She didn't really save the day, she just got played," or "Murphy didn't shoot Maeve and save Harry, Mab was controlling her the whole time," or "Nicodemus wouldn't have done anything if Murphy hadn't brought the Sword.") while insulting her or blaming her for everything wrong ("She's arrogant and thinks she knows better than God," or "She's just lecturing and nagging Harry," "She's still the same distrustful character she was in the first books" or "It's her fault that Butters didn't trust Harry.") and outright making things up ("Uriel said she shouldn't have the Swords," or "Murphy keeps winning fist fights with supernatural creatures, that's unrealistic.")

Murphy cooling Harry down from nearly murdering her in a rage using her trust, patience, love and understanding of Harry becomes, "Murphy bullied and manipulated him so she could keep the Swords."

There was once a poster who argued that Murphy going to help Harry rescue Molly made Murphy personally and exclusively responsible for every crime in the city of Chicago because she wasn't around to stop them.

We're all sick of seeing it. Frankly the way Murphy is torn down while other, male characters who do the same or worse than her are lauded or their offenses ignored (or even projected on to Murphy) and the way that people are actively campaigning for her to be fridged because of how it will hurt Harry reeks of misogyny.

I mean, let's talk about Marcone for a second. Every few months there's a thread or a discussion on how people think he'll be a Knight of the Cross.

Read Even Hand. Read about how he very nearly gives Justine and an innocent child to the Fomor because that's what protocol is. Then read how, even after he's killed the Fomor lord and protected Justine and the child, he very nearly puts a bullet in her head anyway, just because she knows of his defenses and might some day tell Harry about them. He only doesn't because that would draw Harry into a confrontation immediately, instead of somewhere down the line.

That, apparently, is Knight of the Cross material -- while Murphy, whose trust and love and faith and willingness to put herself to the hazard to save others is cemented in the last several books, is constantly demeaned, blamed for others' mistakes and met with cries of "Kill her already so Harry can suffer/Molly can schtupp Harry instead!"

[peregrine]

There may be some type of intellectus going on where Mab/notMurphy knows that a Mab/Murphy exists in some past/present/future/alternate reality and there is feedback occurring by the existence of this Mab/Murphy existing out there somewhere. 

Would this be the same intellectus that lets completely random people like the mailman know that Harry is switching universes?  The same intellectus that must exist in order for someone who has absolutely no other way of knowing something know that thing to justify a whacko theory?