WAG.... Murphy has moved on

[Mr. Death]

Actually this brings up an interesting question.  Was Anduriel listening in on Harry, and Murphy's conversation when she stated that she didn't want to help the Fallen?

Almost certainly. Anduriel was probably listening in on everything Harry was doing that it could, hence Mab needing to specifically block him off for Harry to talk to Kringle and Grey.

Which is, again, why Murphy doesn't tell Harry she's bringing the Sword. She recognizes that he's keeping things close because he knows he's being watched; ergo, she doesn't blithely give away her own trump card by telling Harry.

As for Murphy "put a bullet between Gen's eyes in a twinkle," recall that when Harry shot the Genoskwa, it was using a gun that was bigger than Murphy and the Genoskwa didn't even seem to notice. Nicodemus and the Genoskwa both looked at Murphy holding a rocket launcher and were confident they'd shrug it off.

Oh, and while Murphy is taking that totally ineffective shot at the Genoskwa, Nicodemus is going to murder the hell out of her. And then kill Harry anyway.

Murphy was in an untenable position. There was not quick fix that would have gotten everybody out alive, and believing that Nicodemus was telling the truth about not wanting Harry dead requires ignoring who Nicodemus is, Harry's conclusions and basic common sense.

I mean, what do you seriously think happens if Murphy doesn't arrive with the Sword? Nicodemus to shrug and go, "Oops! Well, that didn't go how I thought. Sorry about that, see you at the hide-out, no hard feelings!"? The idea is absurd.

Murphy's choice -- a choice she arrived at because of Butters mucking things up and her and Harry's decision to save him -- was to lose the Sword or lose Harry.

[Fcrate]

Murphy's choice -- a choice she arrived at because of Butters mucking things up and her and Harry's decision to save him --

Both she and Harry were idiots. I'd let the little fucker rot.

[Kindler]

Which is, again, why Murphy doesn't tell Harry she's bringing the Sword. She recognizes that he's keeping things close because he knows he's being watched; ergo, she doesn't blithely give away her own trump card by telling Harry.

Yes. I've seen this brought up as Murphy not trusting Harry, but Harry blatantly tells her that he's keeping things close to the chest—even when they're alone, in her house, behind a threshold. Aside from which, there's really no reason to tell Harry she's bringing the Sword anyway; it's not like he's going to use it. In fact, she brings out the "rocket launcher" and deliberately avoids calling it that; she just says it's something that'll make the Genoskwa think twice.

It also prevents Harry from looking at Murphy and saying something stupid, like, "Murphy, now! Use the Sword!" in a moment of crisis.

As for Murphy "put a bullet between Gen's eyes in a twinkle," recall that when Harry shot the Genoskwa, it was using a gun that was bigger than Murphy and the Genoskwa didn't even seem to notice. Nicodemus and the Genoskwa both looked at Murphy holding a rocket launcher and were confident they'd shrug it off.

Oh, and while Murphy is taking that totally ineffective shot at the Genoskwa, Nicodemus is going to murder the hell out of her. And then kill Harry anyway.

Even worse than that, look at the position she was holding Nic in. He was on his feet, with the Sword pointed at his throat. Murph was across from him, also on her feet. If she shifts at all to draw a gun—across her body, mind you—she loses the position, and Nic gets free. Nic is really fast; Michael considers him an even match against himself—a guy who is a professional Sword-guy. Part-time, maybe, but he puts in a lot of hours. Murphy is good—really good—which is why the ruse had some semblance of verisimilitude at all—but nobody's good enough to beat Nic twice. Hell, the moment she tensed up to kill him, he wriggled out of the danger, grabbed her wrists, and wrestled the Sword away from her.

Murphy was in an untenable position. There was not quick fix that would have gotten everybody out alive, and believing that Nicodemus was telling the truth about not wanting Harry dead requires ignoring who Nicodemus is, Harry's conclusions and basic common sense.

I mean, what do you seriously think happens if Murphy doesn't arrive with the Sword? Nicodemus to shrug and go, "Oops! Well, that didn't go how I thought. Sorry about that, see you at the hide-out, no hard feelings!"? The idea is absurd.

And if she didn't use the Sword, but instead relied on standard weaponry, Nicodemus would've slaughtered her. It wouldn't have even been close; the Sword helps keep Anduriel at bay. Without it, Anduriel is free to shadow-stomp her.

Even if she was able to beat him, it wouldn't have done lasting damage. He still had the Noose during the fight; he takes it off when he "surrenders"—which is what I think actually makes the Sword vulnerable, too. If he had kept it on, and Murphy knew that, I think the Sword would have remained unbroken.

Murphy's choice -- a choice she arrived at because of Butters mucking things up and her and Harry's decision to save him -- was to lose the Sword or lose Harry.

Butters deserves a big chunk of blame for the whole situation. He didn't have Faith (yuk-yuk-yuk) in Harry and Murphy's good intentions. It's only when it's restored that he redeems himself.

[raidem]

Assuming Murphy is Mab or becomes Mab or becomes some Mantled individual and Anduriel/Nicodemus knows it, what is Nicodemus aiming at with his interplay with Murphy and say Mab.  Is he trying to poke an eye at Mab by screwing with Murphy, one of her prior reality past selves?

That is my take anyway.  Nicodemus knows who Mab is and is poking Mab by beating the hell out of Murphy.  And Mab is poking Nic by screwing him over with the plot of Skin Game.

[peregrine]

So not only now does Murphy become Mab, now Nicodemus knows this.  But has yet to do anything with it but tweak Mab's nose, nor has Mab done anything about it but mess with his plans, and for that reason and not because he violated the Accords earlier.

https://giphy.com/gifs/reaction-1zSz5MVw4zKg0

[raidem]

When did I say, "not because he violated the Accords earlier."  I also said "assuming Nicodemus knows this" not that he indeed did.  Who said he didn't do anything with it but tweak Mab's nose, I mean there was an attack on Arctis Tor. And it just so happened that Murphy ended up at Arctis Tor around the time of an attack on Mab.  Maybe Murphy's trip to Arctis Tor was in part protecting Mab's earlier self, or maybe her future or alternate reality self. And, Mab did according to WOJ win big in Small Favor.  I think it was that it "turned out rather well for her."

It is also likely once the time loop had happened it becomes extremely difficult to undue the loop.  Therefore no matter how hard Nicodemus or whoever else tried to derail the loop, this time loop is going to happen barring some near improbability.  And the enemies of Mab are trying very hard to have that improbability occur, but in trying to do so are creating the very 'history' that leads to the time loop.

We do know per WOJ that Nicodemus helped Mab take over at the Outergates which is why Mab owes Nicodemus a favor. It is also why Mab learned a lesson about needing to be in two places at once but being unable to.  This then led Mab to give more power to Lea so she could act as her second, likely because she didn't want to become more indebted to the likes of Nicodemus.  So if Nic knows that Murphy is Mab and that Nic assisted Murphy/Mab in taking over the Outergates then he knows that Murphy survives regardless of whatever steps he takes. That said, he knows everything short of Murphy going back in time to make a deal with Nicodemus can happen, including being able to beat the shit out of prior Mab.  Perhaps, Nic is trying to toughen Murphy up so as to make her into the person she needs to be to save the world.   So Nic is saving the universe by beating the crap out of Murphy making sure she doesn't end up a Knight of the Cross but eventually becomes a predator like himself that does bad things because sometimes they need doing.

[Mr. Death]

Simple answer: She's not Mab and will never be Mab, therefore nothing that Nicodemus is doing has anything to do with looking through that lens.

Let's move on.

[raidem]

No. I won't move on. You can move on. Don't tell me what to do, thank you.

You are constantly and forever arguing with Mira about Murphy.  You engage in that behavior. I'll engage in mine.

[Mira]

Yes. I've seen this brought up as Murphy not trusting Harry, but Harry blatantly tells her that he's keeping things close to the chest—even when they're alone, in her house, behind a threshold. Aside from which, there's really no reason to tell Harry she's bringing the Sword anyway; it's not like he's going to use it. In fact, she brings out the "rocket launcher" and deliberately avoids calling it that; she just says it's something that'll make the Genoskwa think twice.

She may have thought that but seeing that didn't stop him from putting Harry's head between his hands to crush in a nano second if that was the plan..  Being behind a threshold at Murphy's house wouldn't protect them from Andril hearing and seeing the conversation..  Only at Michael's house, Mac's bar with Mab running interference, and just guessing, St Marys, would any conversation be safe.

Even worse than that, look at the position she was holding Nic in. He was on his feet, with the Sword pointed at his throat. Murph was across from him, also on her feet. If she shifts at all to draw a gun—across her body, mind you—she loses the position, and Nic gets free. Nic is really fast; Michael considers him an even match against himself—a guy who is a professional Sword-guy. Part-time, maybe, but he puts in a lot of hours. Murphy is good—really good—which is why the ruse had some semblance of verisimilitude at all—but nobody's good enough to beat Nic twice. Hell, the moment she tensed up to kill him, he wriggled out of the danger, grabbed her wrists, and wrestled the Sword away fro

You are missing the point, it isn't about how good Murphy is with the Sword, or that she beat him... It is all about what she did after he surrendered.   It was about her saying "damn you," then attempting a killing blow, the Sword wouldn't allow itself to be used that way and the additional insult of breaking the rules got it broken.. Remember back in Grave Peril when Harry tried to kill Lea with Michael's Sword and it fell out of his hands?  Michael said it wouldn't allow itself to be misused like that,  Lea scooped it up to take to the party to bargain with for the Knife, and it was to be used in a sacrifice to be unmade... 

And if she didn't use the Sword, but instead relied on standard weaponry, Nicodemus would've slaughtered her. It wouldn't have even been close; the Sword helps keep Anduriel at bay. Without it, Anduriel is free to shadow-stomp her.

The slaughter of Murphy was never the intent.... Once the Sword was broken Nic could have killed her easily, but that would ruin his over all plan so he merely stomped  the crap out of her... 

I mean, what do you seriously think happens if Murphy doesn't arrive with the Sword? Nicodemus to shrug and go, "Oops! Well, that didn't go how I thought. Sorry about that, see you at the hide-out, no hard feelings!"? The idea is absurd.

Is it?  He knew the whole time through Andriel that she was bringing the Sword... That was the whole point of the set up..  If she didn't bring it, no chance to break a Holy Sword that day, so he'd merely bide his time to pull what he tried to pull once they got to the vault, the artifacts being his ultimate goal.. The only thing that really saved the day was Harry's double crossed his double cross with Goodman Gray...

Even if she was able to beat him, it wouldn't have done lasting damage. He still had the Noose during the fight; he takes it off when he "surrenders"—which is what I think actually makes the Sword vulnerable, too. If he had kept it on, and Murphy knew that, I think the Sword would have remained unbroken.

She did "beat him" more or less, he surrendered, removing both noose and coin...  If she had called his bluff, well, he would have been screwed and nothing would have happened to the Sword.. However because of what he heard her tell Harry through Andriel,  he knew for certain that she could not resist the temptation to execute because that is what she sincerely believes he deserves...

Butters deserves a big chunk of blame for the whole situation. He didn't have Faith (yuk-yuk-yuk) in Harry and Murphy's good intentions. It's only when it's restored that he redeems himself.

Yes, and to his credit, Butters admits that he is the blame for a lot of it...  And in a round about way  so is Bob, who knows what he told Butters about what the Winter Knight's mantle and what it does to the host...

[Arjan]

No. I won't move on. You can move on. Don't tell me what to do, thank you.

You are constantly and forever arguing with Mira about Murphy.  You engage in that behavior. I'll engage in mine.

But that is futile because:

Mouse == Mab

Clearly the superior theory. Proof? Better alliteration.

[Mr. Death]

Mira: Yes, it is absurd, because regardless of whether Murphy brought the Sword, Nicodemus still caught Butters snooping on his secret crime plan and then caught Harry helping Butters.

That alone gives Nicodemus full rights to kill Harry. There is no way that Nicodemus would not pursue and attempt to eliminate Butters, because that is how anyone planning a crime of that scope works, and there is no way Nicodemus would let Harry's betrayal -- and it was obvious to everybody that that's exactly what it was -- slide if he does not get something out of it in return.

When a member of your super secret crime crew betrays you, you deal with them. That's how criminal enterprises have worked forever, in reality and in fiction.

Suggesting that the entire scenario exists solely to destroy the Sword -- which Nicodemus admits he wasn't certain was in play -- and that Nicodemus would not have attacked Butters or Harry otherwise, flies in the face of common sense and goes against even the basic understanding of how someone like Nicodemus works.

[groinkick]

Assuming Murphy is Mab or becomes Mab or becomes some Mantled individual and Anduriel/Nicodemus knows it, what is Nicodemus aiming at with his interplay with Murphy and say Mab.  Is he trying to poke an eye at Mab by screwing with Murphy, one of her prior reality past selves?

That is my take anyway.  Nicodemus knows who Mab is and is poking Mab by beating the hell out of Murphy.  And Mab is poking Nic by screwing him over with the plot of Skin Game.

He did work with Mab in the past, lending her Anduriel.....

[raidem]

Which is why I think Nicodemus knows who Mab is. Add to that Nicodemus is older than Mab, we get the question then is who is Mab?  Somewhere, Sometime, Mab's identity will become relevant.

[jonas]

But that is futile because:

Mouse == Mab

Clearly the superior theory. Proof? Better alliteration.

All you seem to do here anymore Arjan is troll idea's you don't like...
*vehemently disagree, argue evidence to the contrary, ignore them, ect. Don't sit there and make tasteless jokes on people's idea's as a way to cut at them.

[Arjan]

You are missing the point, it isn't about how good Murphy is with the Sword, or that she beat him... It is all about what she did after he surrendered.   It was about her saying "damn you," then attempting a killing blow, the Sword wouldn't allow itself to be used that way and the additional insult of breaking the rules got it broken.. Remember back in Grave Peril when Harry tried to kill Lea with Michael's Sword and it fell out of his hands?  Michael said it wouldn't allow itself to be misused like that,  Lea scooped it up to take to the party to bargain with for the Knife, and it was to be used in a sacrifice to be unmade... 

The sword broken was the least important part of the whole affair. Michael understood as he told Harry before the sword was remade:

Michael smiled at me a little. “You’re a good man, Harry. But you’re making the same mistake Nicodemus always has—and the same one Karrin did.”
“What mistake?”
“You all think the critical word in the phrase ‘Sword of Faith’ is ‘sword.’”
I frowned at him.
“The world always thinks that the destruction of a physical vessel is victory,” he said quietly. “But the Savior was more than merely cells and tissue and chemical compounds—and Fidelacchius is more than wood and steel.”

Everyone who thinks saving that wood and steel is more important than saving Harry and Waldo makes that same mistake.

Which brings us to the important decision and that is not what she did when Nicodemus did his mock surrender, she knew she was not knight material and that she would place saving Harry above saving a denarian soul. The important decisions were bringing the sword and risking it to save lives. That decision was made earlier.

After that all her decisions were made under heavy pressure and she was following her nature. she did what she thought was best and she achieved a lot. She saved the day. She deserves recognition for that. Especially since I did not really read a better action plan here and we had years to think about it, she had to decide immediately.

Murphy did well, even better than she herself thought.