Author Topic: WAG.... Murphy has moved on  (Read 76280 times)

Offline groinkick

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #105 on: June 18, 2018, 04:59:25 AM »
Everything can be explained with the right application of the Murphy is Mab theory. Mab is slowly taking over Murphy but she does not completely understand humans let alone Harry.

Harry is married to Mab so when Harry and Karen finally consummate their relationship the magical link will be completed and Murphy will turn into Mab which he will notice when he wakes up next to her.

Actually brings up a point.  Will Mab care about Harry having a relationship?
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Offline forumghost

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #106 on: June 18, 2018, 05:10:34 AM »
Actually brings up a point.  Will Mab care about Harry having a relationship?

Why the hell would she? Harry is just an tool to her, she has no care for whom he's bedding.

Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #107 on: June 18, 2018, 05:11:41 AM »
Actually brings up a point.  Will Mab care about Harry having a relationship?
Not at all but she does have to meet some standards:

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Your first engagement as the Winter Knight calls for something a bit less . . . postapocalyptic." She studied Susan with a critical expression. "Mmmm. And your concubine cannot be allowed to bring any shame upon you and, by extension, upon the queen."
I sputtered.
Susan arched an eyebrow. "His concubine?"
"His lover, the mother of his child, yet to whom he is not wed? I believe the term applies, dear." She waved a hand. "Words. La. Let us see."

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Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #108 on: June 18, 2018, 05:15:14 AM »
Why the hell would she? Harry is just an tool to her, she has no care for whom he's bedding.
They are married.
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Offline jonas

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #109 on: June 18, 2018, 05:34:03 AM »
Except that there's already an actual three headed Cerberus hanging around.  Mab and Titania don't go around having lunch with Hecate for example.
No, your being literal while i'm looking at meta. There was also a WL already before Molly, whom also happened to change in style in direct unison with Molly's style(getting piercing's ect.), but the reason for that would be beyond the mundane world of literalness.
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Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #110 on: June 18, 2018, 07:16:31 AM »
Actually brings up a point.  Will Mab care about Harry having a relationship?

Depends on what you mean by "Care"

Will she get jealous like any human woman?
Obviously not. The fae do not practice monogamy.

Will she forbid it, on the grounds that she is married to Harry in a sense?
I am strongly convinced the answer is also negative. Marriage in Mab's terms is likely something very different than what your average mortals perceive.

Will she just let Harry do as he wish in this matter and not interfere at all?
Of course not. Mab is going to use anything and everything to get a leverage on Harry, and Harry's lover will be included into her calculations even if she cannot influence Murphy directly due to Murphy being an unfiliated vanilla, she'll get her claws into Murphy somehow should Murphy decide to become the wife of the winter knight,  or at least she'll try to do so if that would serve her purpose. In this sense, Mab certainly care about Harry's love life.

In short, Mab will only care if she deems it nescesary, and since she is a fae, she'll be as mysterious as ever.
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Offline forumghost

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #111 on: June 18, 2018, 07:25:55 AM »
They are married.

Which is basically a footnote in this situation. It's charitable to call it even a Political Marriage.

There is only two ways that Mab would care:

1) If they decide to get Hitched and that bond somehow superceed's her ties to her own Knight.
2) If she decides that Murphy is an appropriate lever to manipulate Harry.

Which- I mean, 2 is 100% going to happen at some point, because Mab is an evil, manipulative bitch, but that was gonna show up at some point regardless of Harry's relationship with her.

Offline Mira

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #112 on: June 18, 2018, 11:11:08 AM »
Why the hell would she? Harry is just an tool to her, she has no care for whom he's bedding.

She'd only care if it affects his work...

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #113 on: June 18, 2018, 12:05:53 PM »
She'd only care if it affects his work...
I don't say this often so take note:

I agree with Mira on this. Mab is very objective focused. She probably doesn't give much of a damn for silly mortal ceremonies so long as it's clear to Harry who he answers to and he does his job.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #114 on: June 18, 2018, 12:32:13 PM »
I don't say this often so take note:

I agree with Mira on this. Mab is very objective focused. She probably doesn't give much of a damn for silly mortal ceremonies so long as it's clear to Harry who he answers to and he does his job.
If Karen is just a concubine sure but what happens if Harry and Karen decide to marry with full ceremony and so on, that sort of thing can get complicated.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #115 on: June 18, 2018, 01:25:25 PM »
Well, a man taking multiple wives isn't unheard of in certain traditions. Though I imagine Mab would make it absolutely clear which wife took priority.
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Offline forumghost

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #116 on: June 18, 2018, 02:41:46 PM »
Mab won't even care. The only way that she might is if The Power of Love™ might allow Harry to slip his leash.

And at this point I doubt that that's possible.

Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #117 on: June 18, 2018, 02:49:17 PM »
Well, a man taking multiple wives isn't unheard of in certain traditions. Though I imagine Mab would make it absolutely clear which wife took priority.
Except that Harry and Karen will not marry in one of those traditions. The whole thing has ritual significance in the dresdenverse.

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Offline Kindler

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #118 on: June 18, 2018, 03:07:19 PM »
See, I don't get that viewpoint. For it to happen, two characters would have to pull a total reversal and Jim would have to undo a whole lot of character development to contrive it. I'd see that as terrible writing and betraying who the characters are. It would be like Harry suddenly deciding that Murphy is better kept in the dark, despite him having learned that lesson ages ago and repeating as recently as Zoo Day that he remembers it.

How is that something you wouldn't mind?

A couple of things: first, it depends on the circumstances. If it was handled with nonsense plot contrivances that don't make a lick of sense, I'd be furious at the betrayal. If it was motivated by, say, Murphy feeling left out because she can't keep up with Harry, I'd drop being a Murphy fan (which I am) immediately. But if the circumstances were such that they mirrored Harry's in Changes sufficiently, where Murphy was manipulated, beaten down, and needed to grab onto something to save Harry/Maggie/Someone Too Important to Lose, I could get behind it.

Second, Murphy's attitude about Harry being the Winter Knight (at least as recently as Skin Game) has been "You'll find a way to get out of it" (pretty much my attitude as well), so Murphy might not consider it as permanent as someone else. Harry does try to disabuse her of the idea that it's possible to wiggle free of the Mantle, but I don't know that she buys it.

Third (very weak point coming up), the circumstances might not be such that she has much of a choice. I don't think the Mantle will head to her by default; Summer Knight pretty clearly demonstrates that the Knight's Mantle will snap back to whichever Court it belongs to. Aurora had manipulated matters and circumstances such that the Mantle didn't go anywhere, by hiding it in Lily, who she turned to stone rather than killed. It didn't have anywhere to go since its owner was still alive, just, you know, doing a Weeping Angel impression. But I could see circumstances of someone becoming a Knight against their will, and it might be a good way for someone to screw with Harry/Murphy (such as Sarissa, though I doubt she's holding a grudge).

All that aside, I'm pretty sure the act of will is an important part of becoming a Knight, as it's kinda their whole purpose to begin with (otherwise Mab might've just crammed the Mantle down Harry's throat several books ago). I'm also positive that the Fae aren't capable of violating a mortal's free will in the first place without a deal being made, so again, the above point is pretty moot. I only bring it up to counter other arguments in the thread about it being something that happens to Murph rather than something she does.

In the fourth place, I wouldn't mind it because I think it might be a fun and interesting dynamic. Fix isn't all that bright, so when he says that the Summer Knight's job is to stop the Winter Knight, I don't really buy it. I mostly think that the job is to prevent the Winter Knight from screwing with mortals, or Summer. It seemed to be the MO of the previous Summer Knight, the artist guy (I forget his name and am currently too tired to look it up) to take care of, essentially, Lost Children. That Changeling gang hung around him because he was (I presume) a pretty good guy who offered them protection from the Fae Courts. I could see Murphy turning the power of the Mantle to becoming a sort of supernatural cop, for example.

Fifth, I like it better than anything else that's been tossed around. Becoming a Valkyrie is... meh. Too morbid for Murphy; they Choose the Slain. I'd prefer she not be a Knight of the Cross, as it was A) way too obvious, B) it didn't turn out so great the first time, and C) it's been done to death already. Vampire love-interest was already done (and is just passe at this point). At least as the Summer Knight she won't become a jerk, either; Fix "Grew" rather than turned into a meathead, and his motivation remained essentially "protect Lily," as it was in Summer Knight.

All of this aside, it is not my preference for Murphy to get any sort of power-up. I want her to remain a vanilla human; she's badass enough as it is. Even post-Skin Game-"CAN'T-KEEP-UP-WITH-HARRY-ANYMORE-OH-MY-GOD-ABANDON-SHIP"-Murphy is ten times as badass as the majority of people in the books. I'd put 90% Murph up against a wider range of supernatural threats in the Dresdenverse than most would, I think. Keep her as is, I say. Let her run the Paranet as she has been.

Offline Mira

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #119 on: June 18, 2018, 04:12:23 PM »
Quote

A couple of things: first, it depends on the circumstances. If it was handled with nonsense plot contrivances that don't make a lick of sense, I'd be furious at the betrayal. If it was motivated by, say, Murphy feeling left out because she can't keep up with Harry, I'd drop being a Murphy fan (which I am) immediately. But if the circumstances were such that they mirrored Harry's in Changes sufficiently, where Murphy was manipulated, beaten down, and needed to grab onto something to save Harry/Maggie/Someone Too Important to Lose, I could get behind it.

That is what has worried me and increasing since she left the police force, one reason why I am not much of a fan anymore.
Quote
Second, Murphy's attitude about Harry being the Winter Knight (at least as recently as Skin Game) has been "You'll find a way to get out of it" (pretty much my attitude as well), so Murphy might not consider it as permanent as someone else. Harry does try to disabuse her of the idea that it's possible to wiggle free of the Mantle, but I don't know that she buys it.
This is what I mean about not asking any questions or listening to what Harry has to say.  I think she does more harm than good with the attitude that he could get out of the gig if he really wanted to.  Perhaps she will come to understand that there is a lot more to wearing the mantle than meets the eye and there is a real need/place for the Winter Knight.
Quote
Third (very weak point coming up), the circumstances might not be such that she has much of a choice. I don't think the Mantle will head to her by default; Summer Knight pretty clearly demonstrates that the Knight's Mantle will snap back to whichever Court it belongs to. Aurora had manipulated matters and circumstances such that the Mantle didn't go anywhere, by hiding it in Lily, who she turned to stone rather than killed. It didn't have anywhere to go since its owner was still alive, just, you know, doing a Weeping Angel impression. But I could see circumstances of someone becoming a Knight against their will, and it might be a good way for someone to screw with Harry/Murphy (such as Sarissa, though I doubt she's holding a grudge).
I keep reading suggestions about possible power ups and mantles for Murphy, but to my mind if this were to happen it would blow a lot of why many of her fans claim they lover her.   That being she is the mortal vanilla human element in Harry's life that keeps him grounded... But give her a power up or a mantle, she can no longer come from that perspective.