Zoo Day Spoiler... Wag

[groinkick]

So was Mouses brother Nemesis infected, or was it a clue about what Nemesis is?  He was able to manipulate the Beings possessing the children into violating the laws before Mouse intervened with his Breath...  So I'm not sure if his brother is Nemfected, or if he was darkside, and displaying the ability to mimic Nemesis...  Could Nemesis just be an evil Celestial Being? 

[Quantus]

So was Mouses brother Nemesis infected, or was it a clue about what Nemesis is?  He was able to manipulate the Beings possessing the children into violating the laws before Mouse intervened with his Breath...  So I'm not sure if his brother is Nemfected, or if he was darkside, and displaying the ability to mimic Nemesis...  Could Nemesis just be an evil Celestial Being?

Ask that another way:  Could TWG be just a benevolent Outsider?

[groinkick]

Ask that another way:  Could TWG be just a benevolent Outsider?

hmmm.  I'd guess if it was going to be done that way then the Old Ones would be like Fallen on a larger scale.  Like you have TWG/Old Ones on equal terms, and the Old Ones fell and became completely twisted.

however I don't believe they are equal in power.  The reason being that Jim said TWG locked them out (Outsiders), and they can only come in because of the free will of humans.  If they were on equal terms I don't know if TWG could banish them away.

[Quantus]

hmmm.  I'd guess if it was going to be done that way then the Old Ones would be like Fallen on a larger scale.  Like you have TWG/Old Ones on equal terms, and the Old Ones fell and became completely twisted.

however I don't believe they are equal in power.  The reason being that Jim said TWG locked them out (Outsiders), and they can only come in because of the free will of humans. If they were on equal terms I don't know if TWG could banish them away.

Aha, I have an answer for that one:  This is TWG's Home, so s/he gets to decide who can and cannot come in, the same way that only Micky Malone's wife could invite anyone into her house.  We Souled Mortals bugger things up by also being able to Invite things Inside, in the same way a small child can be tricked into giving an Invitation.  So TWG would be no more or less equal than their Outsider equivalents, s/he is just the Current Owner/Resident of the Multiverse.

[groinkick]

Aha, I have an answer for that one:  This is TWG's Home, so s/he gets to decide who can and cannot come in, the same way that only Micky Malone's wife could invite anyone into her house.  We Souled Mortals bugger things up by also being able to Invite things Inside, in the same way a small child can be tricked into giving an Invitation.  So TWG would be no more or less equal than their Outsider equivalents, s/he is just the Current Owner/Resident of the Multiverse.

Yeah I don't know.  I guess it actually comes to a philosophical question that I don't know Jim will answer in the stories.  Did TWG come into existence via the Universe (A materialistic, evolutionary Being), or did TWG actually create Creation, and is in fact an eternal Being that didn't come into existence but has always existed.

The next step would be if the Old Ones came into existence (same as a materialistic God), have always existed (like an eternal God), or were creations of TWG.

[Slowpool]

Ask that another way:  Could TWG be just a benevolent Outsider?

  Possibly.  I'd considered that for a while after Cold Days came out.  I mean, He's definitely an Outsider- He came from Outside, after all.  He had to if He created the Inside.  The question is are there different sorts of Outsiders?  Different classes of being, with different motivations?  In fact, I kind of wish I'd asked that in Virginia.  S**t.
  I'm imagining one of two major possibilities: one, that Outsiders are celestial entities on the same order as angels who opposed the idea of Creation from before the beginning.  They didn't even have the fortune of becoming Fallen- they never got to the angel part at all, and became formless spirits of entropy and chaos.  Two, they are remnants of past, failed Creations, and the Big Guy Upstairs decided (for whatever reason) that those old realities needed to go out of business.  Now the laid off workers are camping outside the shiny new building built over their old lot, swarming the front door and trying to sabotage the scabs who work there now.

[Quantus]

Yeah I don't know.  I guess it actually comes to a philosophical question that I don't know Jim will answer in the stories.  Did TWG come into existence via the Universe (A materialistic, evolutionary Being), or did TWG actually create Creation, and is in fact an eternal Being that didn't come into existence but has always existed.

The next step would be if the Old Ones came into existence (same as a materialistic God), have always existed (like an eternal God), or were creations of TWG.

Well, per WOJ the Angels do in fact predate Time itself ("in the Dresden Universe"), so they predate the Current Universe even if they turn out to not predate all existence everywhere (which by definition the Outside's existence makes difficult).  Granted the WOJ says in the Dresden Universe, which logically does not preclude Multiverse origins

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@longshotauthor In the Dresden Files, are the fallen 4.6 billion years old or approx 4000? Big bang vs God making everything really.
@GiftedMonster How do you know that before the Big Bang, God didn't say "Let there be light." It's fantasy fiction, Ashely, not theology
@GiftedMonster Though for the record, the Dresden universe angels have been around since before time was a Thing. #TemporalHipsters

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  Possibly.  I'd considered that for a while after Cold Days came out.  I mean, He's definitely an Outsider- He came from Outside, after all.  He had to if He created the Inside.  The question is are there different sorts of Outsiders?  Different classes of being, with different motivations?  In fact, I kind of wish I'd asked that in Virginia.  S**t.
  I'm imagining one of two major possibilities: one, that Outsiders are celestial entities on the same order as angels who opposed the idea of Creation from before the beginning.  They didn't even have the fortune of becoming Fallen- they never got to the angel part at all, and became formless spirits of entropy and chaos.  Two, they are remnants of past, failed Creations, and the Big Guy Upstairs decided (for whatever reason) that those old realities needed to go out of business.  Now the laid off workers are camping outside the shiny new building built over their old lot, swarming the front door and trying to sabotage the scabs who work there now.

By all accounts (both Lovecraft and the few outsiders actually seen in the DV) they are all pretty damn unique in both form and personality, especially the higher up in the power echelons you go.

[Slowpool]

By all accounts (both Lovecraft and the few outsiders actually seen in the DV) they are all pretty damn unique in both form and personality, especially the higher up in the power echelons you go.

Oh I'm not doubting that.  I just want to know if there are other Outsiders besides the ones who seem to want to ruin everyone's good time.  Are there Things that exist outside of Existence that don't want to crash our sandbox game?  Are there factions among them?  Or are they too alien for human ideas like that to apply?

[wardenferry419]

Mouse and his brother are guardian dogs. A good guardian, like Mouse, keeps things out. A bad guardian, his brother, lets thins in. Maybe?

[Quantus]

Oh I'm not doubting that.  I just want to know if there are other Outsiders besides the ones who seem to want to ruin everyone's good time.  Are there Things that exist outside of Existence that don't want to crash our sandbox game?  Are there factions among them?  Or are they too alien for human ideas like that to apply?

Im going to say we dont know for sure one way or the other. Though the Council /Thinks/ that one of their Known Facts about Outsiders is that they ALL work together, so actual Factions might be out.  But Im reasonably sure they'd have varying degrees of Interest in the universe, and varying preferred methods