Best question answer at the Virginia book signing

[groinkick]

There was likely some passion in her voice on the subject.  She herself wasn't what you'd call the "Dresdenverse Standard" of tall willowy blonde.  She was likely speaking from a personal interest in seeing others like herself portrayed (honestly, she was very close to what I've always pictured Charity as, only younger) which is a common subject these days.  Representation is incredible for those that don't normally have it. 

But I think both sides were respectful.  She seemed disappointed in his response, but that's her right, as is his desire to tell his story as he sees it.

To quote Nora Roberts "I like all my characters to be beautiful".  I don't see anything wrong with Jim having beautiful women around Harry. 

[Dina]

I see so much trouble with that quote that it's almost sickening.

As I said, I think that JB does quite well in diversity. For instance, his Knights include a black Russian, a Christian Japanese, a Jewish and your classic catholic white man. He also has Susan Rodriguez, Carlos Ramirez, Martha Liberty, Ancient Mai, Listens-to-the-Wind and, of course, Rashid. The bad guys have the Ortegas and Kumori, I suppose.

But most of the women are beautiful, sexy and slim. Also tall, except for Karrin.  I've argued before that Harry, as a non-reliable narrator, can be seeing women as more beautiful than they are (specially when he is younger or has not been laid in a while). But perhaps some "normal woman" would be a good addition?

Since Susan is dead and the others are secondary characters, the main women are currently a bunch of white beauties. So I don't think it's bad to ask a question about that. It doesn't mean forcing Jim to do anything. Heck, for all we know, perhaps he was secretly laughing to himself because Peace Talks includes a fat Asian woman as a main character. But seeing reading a bunch of males in this thread laughing at a girl who cannot defend herself because of a reasonable question that may be important for her was sad for me. I also admit I have triggers, as male privilege is really bad here and causes many deaths everyday, so we are staying alert, trying to change our minds, to make people realize of things and prejudices that make us think that things have to be in a way and cannot be different. This moves quickly, and our expectations change all the time. 

[Romulan Cmdr]

You d be surprised at this so-called diversity push that actually is about exclusion.   I saw on a FB thread about Dresden Files where several were arguing that the character was whatever color/race/gender that they the reader wanted it to be, and the author's descriptions didnt matter. in the particular case they said that they didnt want Murphy to be white, blond and short because thats not the head cannon they wanted.

[Fcrate]

Remember Lash changing her hair and saying "There are too many blondes in your life, my host". Jim is aware of that.
I think all of you are reading too much into it. To me a story is just a story, I read it for fun and nothing more.
Besides, you don't ask a question like that and expect an answer that you will like. Maybe she has a point, but still, some questions are best left alone, at least in public.

[Griffyn612]

You d be surprised at this so-called diversity push that actually is about exclusion.   I saw on a FB thread about Dresden Files where several were arguing that the character was whatever color/race/gender that they the reader wanted it to be, and the author's descriptions didnt matter. in the particular case they said that they didnt want Murphy to be white, blond and short because thats not the head cannon they wanted.

I don't see a problem with that.  Especially for a series about a white guy that the author once said could be played by Will Smith.  Head canon for Murphy could be that she's not naturally blonde, or she's biracial, or she's got ties to Solomon Island as much as Ireland, or really whatever else they want.

Heck hounds, I used to picture Thomas as a blonde and Kincaid as a brunette.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dina]

Your headcanon can be whatever you like, but you have to be aware that is not what the author wrote and accept it.

[Griffyn612]

Let's say someone reads Storm Front, and reads the description of Murphy.

Karrin and I are a study in contrasts. Where I am tall and lean, she’s short and stocky. Where I have dark hair and dark eyes, she’s got Shirley Temple blond locks and baby blues. Where my features are all lean and angular, with a hawkish nose and a sharp chin, hers are round and smooth, with the kind of cute nose you’d expect on a cheerleader.

For the rest of the book, there's no reference (that I can find) to Murphy being white or Irish.  She goes a little pale when she faints, but there aren't any other references to her skin tone.

So is the reader wrong, at end of Storm Front, to picture Murphy like this?


They could have just seen a photo of Jasmine Sanders, and from there on, that's their mental image for Murphy.

[wardenferry419]

There was likely some passion in her voice on the subject.  She herself wasn't what you'd call the "Dresdenverse Standard" of tall willowy blonde.  She was likely speaking from a personal interest in seeing others like herself portrayed (honestly, she was very close to what I've always pictured Charity as, only younger) which is a common subject these days.  Representation is incredible for those that don't normally have it. 

But I think both sides were respectful.  She seemed disappointed in his response, but that's her right, as is his desire to tell his story as he sees it.

Well, I don't think many of us have a physical representation in the books. The closest character similarity to me is Butters. LOL

[wardenferry419]

I see so much trouble with that quote that it's almost sickening.

As I said, I think that JB does quite well in diversity. For instance, his Knights include a black Russian, a Christian Japanese, a Jewish and your classic catholic white man. He also has Susan Rodriguez, Carlos Ramirez, Martha Liberty, Ancient Mai, Listens-to-the-Wind and, of course, Rashid. The bad guys have the Ortegas and Kumori, I suppose.

But most of the women are beautiful, sexy and slim. Also tall, except for Karrin.  I've argued before that Harry, as a non-reliable narrator, can be seeing women as more beautiful than they are (specially when he is younger or has not been laid in a while). But perhaps some "normal woman" would be a good addition?

Since Susan is dead and the others are secondary characters, the main women are currently a bunch of white beauties. So I don't think it's bad to ask a question about that. It doesn't mean forcing Jim to do anything. Heck, for all we know, perhaps he was secretly laughing to himself because Peace Talks includes a fat Asian woman as a main character. But seeing reading a bunch of males in this thread laughing at a girl who cannot defend herself because of a reasonable question that may be important for her was sad for me. I also admit I have triggers, as male privilege is really bad here and causes many deaths everyday, so we are staying alert, trying to change our minds, to make people realize of things and prejudices that make us think that things have to be in a way and cannot be different. This moves quickly, and our expectations change all the time.

Apologies, Dina, but nothing I said was meant to laugh at her. I felt that her question was part curiousity and part accusation. I have read many social media comments that state that Dresden is sexist, hence Butcher must be sexist.I chose to see Dresden's appreciation of a female's appearance to be directly linked to his personal loneliness and desire for companionship.

[Slowpool]

I see so much trouble with that quote that it's almost sickening.

As I said, I think that JB does quite well in diversity. For instance, his Knights include a black Russian, a Christian Japanese, a Jewish and your classic catholic white man. He also has Susan Rodriguez, Carlos Ramirez, Martha Liberty, Ancient Mai, Listens-to-the-Wind and, of course, Rashid. The bad guys have the Ortegas and Kumori, I suppose.

But most of the women are beautiful, sexy and slim. Also tall, except for Karrin.  I've argued before that Harry, as a non-reliable narrator, can be seeing women as more beautiful than they are (specially when he is younger or has not been laid in a while). But perhaps some "normal woman" would be a good addition?

Since Susan is dead and the others are secondary characters, the main women are currently a bunch of white beauties. So I don't think it's bad to ask a question about that. It doesn't mean forcing Jim to do anything. Heck, for all we know, perhaps he was secretly laughing to himself because Peace Talks includes a fat Asian woman as a main character. But seeing reading a bunch of males in this thread laughing at a girl who cannot defend herself because of a reasonable question that may be important for her was sad for me. I also admit I have triggers, as male privilege is really bad here and causes many deaths everyday, so we are staying alert, trying to change our minds, to make people realize of things and prejudices that make us think that things have to be in a way and cannot be different. This moves quickly, and our expectations change all the time.

  To clarify:  I'm not laughing at her precisely because of the question.  For me, the problem with the question was her tone of voice- she asked it in what I can only think of as an accusing, confrontational tone.  I can't pretend to be anything but amused when Jim responded the way he did.  The question itself is not necessarily a bad one (though it does often irritate me, considering my personal experiences).
  Also, fat asian woman?  I can see Lydia Stern, the Midwest Arcane reporter described as "pleasantly plump, and of asian ancestry" showing up and snooping around the peace summit.  Considering how magically violent this one is supposed to be, her presence might add an extra layer of difficulty and frustration to Harry's day and Jim is always in favor of that.

Also I've seen nothing to indicate that Fix OR Lily got much in the way of open access to Summer's information, any more than Harry has.  He's still just a paper cup to the court, and he has officially outlived the Lady that he was hired by.  I strongly suspect they were both being neglected by the wider court in step with Titania, so I doubt they've been schooled to heavily in the subtle shadings of the courts (Unless Eldest Gruff made the effort). 

Beyond that, we dont know how long it has been since they've had a Knight that was actually Good at much besides Killing.  And more than 100 years ago, there's not really much else you'd expect from somebody with the title of Knight.  The ones we know of have mostly been of the murderous sort, but then for all we know Maeve has been in charge of the hiring for all that time.

  That's a fair point(s).  But would Titania really be the only one capable of tutoring Lily and Fix?  I would think there are countless courtiers around them much less crippled by grief and rage and much more benevolently open (like Eldest Gruff, as you said), able and willing to ensure the two of them understand the nature of the Courts.  Unless Titania forbade them from doing that, at which point her relatively understandable grief becomes actively malicious bitterness.  She's certainly capable of that, but against those of her own Court?
  Also, at the Okemos MI Q&A, Jim mentioned why killers were usually chosen to be the Winter Knight- because it's probably gonna be someone who's murdering you anyway, and Mab doesn't like to train new people.  That doesn't rule out an extended list of duties, but it definitely implies (to me) that knifework is at the top of the list.

[Fcrate]

Well, I don't think many of us have a physical representation in the books. The closest character similarity to me is Butters. LOL

Rashid represents me perfectly. Only he's a foot taller, 20 pounds lighter, probably still has all his hair, and his wardrobe is kickass.

[Griffyn612]

Well, I don't think many of us have a physical representation in the books. The closest character similarity to me is Butters. LOL

Sure.  I'm not saying there isn't diversity either.  But for women, here's your cast:

White blonde, most with blue eyes: Karrin, Molly, Charity, Mab/Titania, Aurora, Ivy, Georgia, Luccio (post-swap), Gard, Lash (initially), Sarissa, Anna V, Hannah, Justine, Elaine, Kelly Hamilton, Abby, Monica S

White brunette: Lara, Inari, Tania, Natalia, Elisa, Madeline, Lacuna, Tess, Deirdre, Margaret, Maggie, Esmerelda (Eebs seem Spansih rather than Latino), Helen B, Lydia (Cassandra's tears), Kim D

White exotic hair: Molly (dyed), Maeve, Jenny G, Lily

White redheads: Lea, Andi

Not white: Susan, Martha, Ancient Mai, Tera, Bianca, Arianna, Olivia (?), Lydia S, Yoshimo

Am I missing anyone?  I'm sure there are some more, especially one-off characters. 

Anywho, of the not white selection, you've got five that appeared in one book each, one that appeared in two, another that appeared in three, and one that appeared in five. 

Combined, the same number of appearances as Murphy alone. 

[Dina]

Is Bianca non-white?
Monica Sells?
Kumori?
Who is Lydia S? I forgot  .
Also, most non-white are dead and Mai and Martha are secondary enough.

[Slowpool]

Is Bianca non-white?
Monica Sells?
Kumori?
Who is Lydia S? I forgot  .
Also, most non-white are dead and Mai and Martha are secondary enough.

  Lydia Stern was the lady who took over Susan's job at the Midwestern Arcane.  She was the scathing reporter that Harry asked to help him get Molly out of the room while she was being interrogated. 

[Griffyn612]

Is Bianca non-white?
Monica Sells?
Kumori?
Who is Lydia S? I forgot  .
Also, most non-white are dead and Mai and Martha are secondary enough.

I'm giving Bianca the benefit of the doubt because of her advancement in the organization.

Lydia S is the possibly part-asian reporter that Slowpool mentioned.

Monica was a blonde.

Kumori we don't know yet..

I guess there's also Yoshimo, the wizard trainee.