Summoning Molly

[peregrine]

Not really. If Harry is stupid enough to summon Titania....

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

[Arjan]

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

It depends how Mab views the situation. Jim can write it both ways.

[peregrine]

Ok.  But don't forget that Harry has already summoned Titania.  And she didn't grease stain him then.

[Arjan]

Ok.  But don't forget that Harry has already summoned Titania.  And she didn't grease stain him then.

But could she have done so and how would her sister react? I am not sure.

[Quantus]

Like all things with the the Fae, it would depend on the situation and the moods of the people involved (like any international politics, really).  Arguably, the danger of a War between the courts would be pretty low even if she killed him, since he was Summoning her personally rather than in an official capacity and arguably Summoning her to discuss sedition against the Rule of Winter.  But Mab could always choose to ignore all that context and cry foul at loosing her toy regardless of the circumstances (since something as permanent as Death would never actually be Titania's only option).  Just like when two rival factions spilled into Erlking's home, the Rules really just served to lay out various standard options that everyone could agree on quickly; it didnt actually limit anyone's response all that much. 

[groinkick]

But could she have done so and how would her sister react? I am not sure.

Jim has made it pretty clear that if Harry screws up, and gets himself ghosted, it's on him.  At least that's how I remember it.  If he was out getting groceries, and Titania killed him, that's one thing.  Summoning the Summer Queen as the Winter Knight on the other hand is a whole other can of worms.  I don't doubt that Mab would turn the Summer Knight into one of her play things if he did such a thing.

[Avernite]

Jim has made it pretty clear that if Harry screws up, and gets himself ghosted, it's on him.  At least that's how I remember it.  If he was out getting groceries, and Titania killed him, that's one thing.  Summoning the Summer Queen as the Winter Knight on the other hand is a whole other can of worms.  I don't doubt that Mab would turn the Summer Knight into one of her play things if he did such a thing.

Well, he did summon Titania in pursuit of his duly appointed mission as Winter Knight, and for the protection of the Winter Court.

[groinkick]

Well, he did summon Titania in pursuit of his duly appointed mission as Winter Knight, and for the protection of the Winter Court.

Mab nearly gave an emissary of the White Council frost bite for just requesting the White Council to use the NeverNever to travel through Winter territory.  If she had been summoned.......... I don't think said emissary would have survived.

[Dashkull]

I think the manner and reason for the summoning are probably the most important factor. Harry would be unwise to summon Titania anywhere, ever, but he has been known to do some dumb stuff.

However, if he tried to use, for instance, the circle on Demonreach to summon her, that would VERY much be like holding a loaded gun against someones forehead. So then the question becomes how much of a compulsion Harry can put into the summoning, which is something we should ask Jim about sometime. I seem to recall Harry saying both that powerful beings could simply choose to not show up, but I also think I remember there being methods of summoning that are compulsory to the thing being summoned.

Could Harry actually FORCE one of the queens to come to him? Mother Winter obviously did not want to answer Harry's summon because it both hurt and insulted her, but she still showed up, after a fashion at least. I would guess that a powerful enough call could force even a powerful being to show up, especially if you have their true name. After that, you just better pray you have a good enough circle to prevent instant immolation. (like the one on top of demonreach. I am increasingly certain it is a VERY important part of how the warden does his job)

 I would guess this is addressed more in the early books when Jim tended to spend more time on the nuts and bolts of magic theory, and I dont remember those books as well.

[Arjan]

“It is her way,” Mother Summer said, smiling. “She rarely leaves our cottage anymore. She lost her walking stick. While your summons was impertinent, it was a necessity and you had the right. But it is terribly painful for her to travel, even briefly. You, a mortal, hurt her.”

“I have heeded your summons; yet I would not enter this domain unless specifically bidden. Have I your permission to do so?”

From those words it is clear the queens can refuse the summons but they are Sidhe. Harry has the right to do so if the situation demands it and they will come if the situation demands it.

Better not do it for frivolous reasons though.

[twobee]

The impression I have gotten is that any mortal with magical talent can summon beings from the Nevernever. How accurate and effective that summoning is depends on how well prepared the summons is, which is enhanced by how familiar the summoner is with the target. A quick a dirty summons with no preparation, such as shouting "Mab,Mab, Mab, I summon thee!" while inside a magic circle would only work if the target was impatiently tapping her foot saying "Come on, Dresden, get your act together!" But a summons by someone who knew enough about the subject and took the time to properly prepare would compel the subject to come whether they wanted to or not. Now, the danger is that if you summon someone powerful without good reason, they may decide to smite you. Also, the summoning could be thwarted if the target was somehow prevented from coming. There are 2 examples I can think of where that came up, namely when Lea couldn't respond because she was trapped in Arctis Tor, and when Dresden tried to thwart the necros from summoning the Erlking by trapping him in a circle

[Paviel]

I think a bigger question than whether Harry could summon Molly is whether it would ever occur to Harry that he could.

Remember, Harry can be mind-controlled thoroughly enough to forget about his blasting rod (as he was in Small Favor), and it seems to me like Mab could just as easily ensure that Harry never makes the connection between summoning Sidhe and Molly being Sidhe.

In fact, it should be even easier for Mab to do that now that he is her Knight.

[vultur]

I think a bigger question than whether Harry could summon Molly is whether it would ever occur to Harry that he could.

Remember, Harry can be mind-controlled thoroughly enough to forget about his blasting rod (as he was in Small Favor), and it seems to me like Mab could just as easily ensure that Harry never makes the connection between summoning Sidhe and Molly being Sidhe.

Harry might well not think of it because he still sees Molly as human.

Mab altering his mind to forget about stuff might be an "only works once" thing. Especially since the situation in SmF was favorable to it - Harry was concentrating on proving he wasn't still being influenced by Lash. Now that he's Winter Knight worrying about Mab's influence is on his mind a lot more.

 Also, he's learned significantly more about mind magic since then, and also about himself. I don't think that sort of influence is going to work very well on Harry from now on. He needed Lash's help to resist an Outsider mental attack in WN, and there's damage; he defeats it himself without problems in CD.

Now, Mab can probably compel him using Winter Law, but compelling his actions is different from subtly altering his thoughts so he doesn't notice. We saw Fix being compelled in PG, but he was aware of exactly what the limits were.

[wardenferry419]

I thought that there was text that Harry's mind is an exceptionally togh nut to crack.

[Arjan]

I thought that there was text that Harry's mind is an exceptionally togh nut to crack.

Mab has an excellent nut cracker and she enjoys it so much...