Summoning Molly

[Slowpool]

I could see myself supporting the Amanda as Molly's handmaiden situation if Molly leveled with Amanda from the beginning and told her everything so that Amanda could make an informed decision about filling that role. Probably won't happen that way, but thats what I would like to see.

  I don't think Molly would be capable of that.  Remember, she's Sidhe now.  She pretty much has to be vague.
  She loves her family too much to do that to any of them.  I figure she might eventually come across a changeling or lesser Fae on the job with whom she develops a strong working relationship, and comes along to serve as her second.  That would of course piss off Mab and every other Sidhe in Winter, but Molly has already demonstrated a willingness to piss people off with how she plans on being the Lady.

[Dashkull]

Ok, ok.
A. Harry as WK might have a protocol for calling upon any one of the queens
B. Mab can not show and/or send her own proxy instead, she only has to show if it violates the above precedent actually. Harry had cause to summon Leah remember...
C. Can't imagine her being mad over an honest mistake in summoning her, Mad he was trying to undue her intention, maybe. But since he's not at the time privy to that I can't see why she'd be mad at something he couldn't by her own design know about. Like Being mad a kid playing with matches when he's no idea what fire is or that they make it.... illogical to me.

When I asked JB about the circle and Demonreach, he emphasized just how ballsy it was of Mab to step on the soil of Demonreach at all in Skin Game. The shores of that island are a SERIOUS threat to anything that pisses Dresden off while he is there. I am pretty sure ANY being would be really really upset and worse, frightened, about being summoned to the island for any reason, even accidentally.

 

Isn't this already the plot of Cold Days?

Neither Mother Winter nor Maeve ever actually give Harry a direct order. The only one he is given is from Mab. So, no, the situation has not come up yet.

[Quantus]

Neither Mother Winter nor Maeve ever actually give Harry a direct order. The only one he is given is from Mab. So, no, the situation has not come up yet.

Ya.  Maeve sorta kinda tried at the end, mentally pushing him while he was all deep in the Winter, but Maeve never actually Ordered him to take out Mab, just indicated it's what he should actually be doing

[Talby16]

Ya.  Maeve sorta kinda tried at the end, mentally pushing him while he was all deep in the Winter, but Maeve never actually Ordered him to take out Mab, just indicated it's what he should actually be doing

I wonder if the absence of a direct order was connected to the infection. For instance, was the mantle instinctively protecting Winter from direct Harm by not letting Maeve issue a binding Winter Order. Otherwise Maeve should have just issued an order to Harry with the intention of him violating it and thus violating Winter Law and being stripped of his powers.

[WereElephant]

So far, I haven't seen what I consider to be the most entertaining question in this topic be asked: what would Harry summoning Molly look like?

"Youngest noble daughter of Winter, I request your presence in this mortal coil. Eldest Jawa, and herder of the line of the woodworkers, grant me an audience. Accept this offering of Coke I leave before thee. Weaver of veils, mistress of well brewed coffee, desecrator of prepared foods, I needs must speak with thee. Padawan! Grasshopper! Lady Molly! I summon thee!"

[Quantus]

So far, I haven't seen what I consider to be the most entertaining question in this topic be asked: what would Harry summoning Molly look like?

"Youngest noble daughter of Winter, I request your presence in this mortal coil. Eldest Jawa, and herder of the line of the woodworkers, grant me an audience. Accept this offering of Coke I leave before thee. Weaver of veils, mistress of well brewed coffee, desecrator of prepared foods, I needs must speak with thee. Padawan! Grasshopper! Lady Molly! I summon thee!"

Naaah.


"Molls! Molls! Molls! Get Over Here!" 

Summoning is based on the strength of the Name, and I tend to think the ones that represent a more direct and personal connection work best.  And they put a lot of emotion into the transition to him calling her Mols. 

Fwiw Im pretty sure "Mr Sunshine" would get a faster response than most names for that dude, too. 

[Dashkull]

Harry has her true name too. Though I think it was spoken by her mom and not directly from Molly’s own lips so it might not be as potent.

The cynical part of Harry has to be thinking “man this knowledge is probably worth a ton in trade, and it’s value is only going up.” I mean, imagine the price someone could ask for for Mabd true name.

 

So far, I haven't seen what I consider to be the most entertaining question in this topic be asked: what would Harry summoning Molly look like?

"Youngest noble daughter of Winter, I request your presence in this mortal coil. Eldest Jawa, and herder of the line of the woodworkers, grant me an audience. Accept this offering of Coke I leave before thee. Weaver of veils, mistress of well brewed coffee, desecrator of prepared foods, I needs must speak with thee. Padawan! Grasshopper! Lady Molly! I summon thee!"

Bahaha well played sir.

[AcornArmy]

  But how the hell would Amanda get roped up with the Fae enough to become one of them?  We know Molly became one because she was so wrapped up with Lea that she somehow qualified to inherit the position.  Is there really a way for that to happen with a position on a lesser scale?  Christ, so many better questions than the crap I actually asked.

A. your assuming she's gonna do anything willfully
B. how do you know she doesn't.... Molly proved the fae heritage in her bloodline, Molly, as WL, has been spending time around her family like it's just her family, with her sisters, acting like everything is the same. But the dynamic of what she is is entirely different. And exposure to the fae has consequences. What I describe is perfectly correct, regardless of intention. If Molly suddenly learned to feed on latent adoration or other belief powers latent in the world, can you say her sister would not be a primary boost right at this very moment?

In a WoJ, Jim described Molly as being pure mortal prior to becoming the Winter Lady. At least, that's how it sounded. So Molly may not have had any fae in her ancestry at all.

If so, then it seems that it's not even necessary for someone to be part-fae in order to take up one of the Faery mantles. They just have to be... they have to have whatever the hell happened to Molly happen to them. Whatever that was, exactly.

The problem is that we really have no idea* what happened with Molly to make her vulnerable for mantle-hood. Did she make bargains with Mab or Lea? We never saw that. Was it just that she was tied into Harry's bargain with Mab? She was his apprentice, and therefore a part of his "demesne" or whatever, according to Faery law? And so when he became Mab's subject, Molly became Mab's subject as well, by default? It seems like human free will ought to have come into play somewhere in there before Molly's choices were all suddenly taken away from her.

Or maybe it was something else. Simple proximity to one of the fae over an extended period of time? The same proximity while debt was being paid or accrued, in the fae sense of the term?

If proximity is all that is required, then the other Carpenters are at risk. If debt is required, then they might be in the clear(though it would be so easy for a casual statement between siblings to end up starting a fairy balance sheet). If one must be considered a subject of one of the Faery Courts-- in however tenuous a fashion-- then the other kids are probably safe in making casual comments.


* (Okay, I realize I said we had no idea, and then I went on to state some of those ideas that I said we didn't have. I'm not changing it. Sometimes emphasis is more important than literal accuracy.)

[jonas]

You've been gone awhile acorn... I'm thinking we have Woj latent fae ancestory can be activated more or less by proximity, and another that the whole purpose of the fae making bargains is to get mortals caught up in the 'faeness' or whatever, like Harry being butt deep in it now.

*imo, it was the training to use fear as a weapon without directly violating free will and ergo Cosmic reasoning behind the 7 laws.

[AcornArmy]

I think it mostly has to do with whether the senior of the two agrees with the Summoning itself.  Molly was able to summon Mab in Cold Case without rebuke but the situation, and more importantly Mab's own duties as the Lady's Trainer, made it permissible.  Even Mother Winter didnt...entirely object to Harry's Summons in Cold Days, and she was forced to make the trip and get him even though it caused her pain.  She made use of the encounter, but interestingly she did not send a proxy to go get him and avoid her travel issues.

The Queens have obligations to the Knight, right? I mean, that makes sense. Harry doesn't seem to have any idea what those obligations are, but it seems like they'd have to be there as part of the Winter Knight package. They may not have a lot of obligations to the Knight, but they must owe him something in exchange for his service. Presumably something more than just turning off his sense of pain, I mean. Maybe one of those obligations is that when he calls, they must answer.

Was that what you were implying? I hadn't considered that until I read your post, but the way Mother Winter acted seems like an indication that she felt obliged to respond to his summons. Not in the normal way, maybe, but she didn't just ignore him, either.

[Avernite]

The Queens have obligations to the Knight, right? I mean, that makes sense. Harry doesn't seem to have any idea what those obligations are, but it seems like they'd have to be there as part of the Winter Knight package. They may not have a lot of obligations to the Knight, but they must owe him something in exchange for his service. Presumably something more than just turning off his sense of pain, I mean. Maybe one of those obligations is that when he calls, they must answer.

Was that what you were implying? I hadn't considered that until I read your post, but the way Mother Winter acted seems like an indication that she felt obliged to respond to his summons. Not in the normal way, maybe, but she didn't just ignore him, either.

Actually, I think the Queens have the full needs of vassalage towards the Knight. He must serve them to the best of his abilities, and they in turn must use their power to protect him and his. When the two conflict obviously the Knight can be risked in service of the Queens, but they have a requirement to do so only reasonably.

Mind, if he should fail to serve they also can fail to protect, and punish instead. More or less Denethor's part of the oath ceremony with Pippin in LotR.

[Talby16]

You've been gone awhile acorn... I'm thinking we have Woj latent fae ancestory can be activated more or less by proximity, and another that the whole purpose of the fae making bargains is to get mortals caught up in the 'faeness' or whatever, like Harry being butt deep in it now.

*imo, it was the training to use fear as a weapon without directly violating free will and ergo Cosmic reasoning behind the 7 laws.

Here is a couple of WOJs that may be relevant.

@longshotauthor @HarriedWizard So a half-elf changeling could have kids that when exposed 2 faerydom, child could exhibit faery qualities?
@DeusSolis @HarriedWizard Yeah, though they’d need more exposure the wider the generation gap was. It would be impractical at some point.

The other question I had is, **unintelligible**…when a human takes on the mantle of a Fae, do they automatically become Fae? Do they lose their soul?

Ok, do they automatically become Fae, do they lose their soul? The answer to that question is “sort of”. Um, it’s automatic, but not necessarily instant. Mab herself was human once, and she eventually became the, uh, the fun-loving Mab that we all know. So, a lot of it has to do with who you are when you go into it, because most of the Fae were human once. A lot were born as half-bloods and decided to become Fae and sort of automatically got their **unintelligible**. But a lot of the other Fae who were there, including the Erl and several others, who were at one point humans….So, a lot of this is going to depend on who they  might end up being, a lot of it depends on who they are going into it and what kind of will they have to maintain who they are. That’s going to be a big deal. I’m really looking forward to writing the next books so I can see what happens with Molly, ‘cause I’m really not sure yet, I have a vague idea of what’s gonna happen, because basically she just got handed the largest, unruliest crowd of little brothers and sisters to deal with ever.

**Audience laughter**

But on the other hand, she’s kinda cool with that. She’s used to that role. So anyway, we’ll have to see what happens to her, but, uh, there’s a lot of choice involved **unintelligible** as far as soul goes. Everybody always talks about souls as if it’s something you can have a receipt for, that if you lose it, then it’s just gone, and I don’t think souls work that way, I think that there’s too much attached to them, I think that there are too many things that consist of what your soul is, so I don’t think this is kinda trying to figure “did you lose your soul?”, because I think you can lose your soul without bothering to stop by any kind of supernatural beings whatsoever. You know, if you watch the news, you’ll see people who do that all the time. But yeah, as far as The Dresden Files goes, as far as eternal damnation, etc., goes, no I don’t think that’s as much an issue for Molly as yet, it could sometime though. Whether Mab has some kind of spark of a soul left or not, that’s one of those questions that would be very difficult to answer, and I’m probably not smart enough to answer it. Probably, when you’ve gone so far down the road, just pure power is madness, it’s hard to hang on to your soul. And it depends on how people who have been handed all this extra stuff deal with it, and what that’s going to do for them in the long run. And it’s one of those long run kind of things, meaning you’re going to be stuck like that for 2,000 years, you don’t really have to go bad tomorrow, you have plenty of time yet to start growing mold on your conscience.

[Quantus]

The Queens have obligations to the Knight, right? I mean, that makes sense. Harry doesn't seem to have any idea what those obligations are, but it seems like they'd have to be there as part of the Winter Knight package. They may not have a lot of obligations to the Knight, but they must owe him something in exchange for his service. Presumably something more than just turning off his sense of pain, I mean. Maybe one of those obligations is that when he calls, they must answer.

Was that what you were implying? I hadn't considered that until I read your post, but the way Mother Winter acted seems like an indication that she felt obliged to respond to his summons. Not in the normal way, maybe, but she didn't just ignore him, either.

Pretty much.  I think anyone else that tried to summon Mother Winter would have simply failed, even using the Names he did.  Though as Im saying this, Im not 100% sure if Id say she was actually forced to personally arrive, or was just impressed enough by his Gumption and Name guesses to exert herself.  Ultimately she brought him there for a Test followed by a Power-up in the form of a glimpse of the true Cosmic War (even if he apparently was not able to fully process what he was seeing).

But in general yes, I think Harry and Molly both are considered high ranking Court Members, and as such a certain amount of tolerance for inconvenience and cordial communication is expected.  Hell, Harry survived Summoning Titania too, who seemed to have all the Means/Motive/Opportunity to turn him into a grease-smear, but instead did choose (Choose?) to give him Knowledge as well (in the form of Nemesis's Name).  So some part of this might just be a base level of courtesy expected of Fae nobility when they interact.  Standardized Rules of Etiquette would be the first line of defense against accidentally getting roped into some form of obligation during such interactions.

[Avernite]

Pretty much.  I think anyone else that tried to summon Mother Winter would have simply failed, even using the Names he did.  Though as Im saying this, Im not 100% sure if Id say she was actually forced to personally arrive, or was just impressed enough by his Gumption and Name guesses to exert herself.  Ultimately she brought him there for a Test followed by a Power-up in the form of a glimpse of the true Cosmic War (even if he apparently was not able to fully process what he was seeing).

But in general yes, I think Harry and Molly both are considered high ranking Court Members, and as such a certain amount of tolerance for inconvenience and cordial communication is expected.  Hell, Harry survived Summoning Titania too, who seemed to have all the Means/Motive/Opportunity to turn him into a grease-smear, but instead did choose (Choose?) to give him Knowledge as well (in the form of Nemesis's Name).  So some part of this might just be a base level of courtesy expected of Fae nobility when they interact.  Standardized Rules of Etiquette would be the first line of defense against accidentally getting roped into some form of obligation during such interactions.

And, of course, if Titania turned the Winter Knight into a greasy stain, it'd be war between Summer and Winter.

[Arjan]

And, of course, if Titania turned the Winter Knight into a greasy stain, it'd be war between Summer and Winter.

Not really. If Harry is stupid enough to summon Titania....