I don’t think Justin was Kemmler

[vultur]

Anyone else catch Jim said Bob was held by two very powerful wizards who left an impression on Bob? So... Justin for his own reasons didn't count... cause he's a Kemmler duplicate?

Probably because Justin wasn't actually that powerful... he was a Warden with decades of experience, and Harry beat him at 16, which suggests a fairly significant advantage in power on Harry's part.

Which is another good argument that he wasn't Kemmler - Kemmler certainly wouldn't have lost to Harry.

[jonas]

Probably because Justin wasn't actually that powerful... he was a Warden with decades of experience, and Harry beat him at 16, which suggests a fairly significant advantage in power on Harry's part.

Which is another good argument that he wasn't Kemmler - Kemmler certainly wouldn't have lost to Harry.

He could summon fire that wouldn't burn him, a class of wizardry Harry still isn't capable of...

[groinkick]

Probably because Justin wasn't actually that powerful... he was a Warden with decades of experience, and Harry beat him at 16, which suggests a fairly significant advantage in power on Harry's part.

Harry from Storm Front would have had his hands full with a Warden with decades of experience.  There is a reason Morgan thought Harry could not have defeated Justin.  There still is a reason to question it.  Did Justin fake his own death?  Did He Who Walks Behind betray Justin, and make him unable to defend himself against Harry?  Did someone else help Harry?

I still sometimes wonder if Harry's mind had been messed with so he'd remember killing Justin without actually doing it. 

[WereElephant]

I still sometimes wonder if Harry's mind had been messed with so he'd remember killing Justin without actually doing it.

Dun dun DUN! I like it.

That being said, there's a difference between defeating a Warden and killing a Warden. If Harry caught Justin in a position where going full on toe-to-toe was not an option (element of surprise, or Justin in the middle of doing something like a very delicate spell that couldn't just be paused), decades of magical and job experience go out the window, and Harry takes him out easily.

[vultur]

Dun dun DUN! I like it.

That being said, there's a difference between defeating a Warden and killing a Warden. If Harry caught Justin in a position where going full on toe-to-toe was not an option (element of surprise, or Justin in the middle of doing something like a very delicate spell that couldn't just be paused), decades of magical and job experience go out the window, and Harry takes him out easily.

If Harry caught Justin in a position where going full on toe-to-toe was not an option (element of surprise, or Justin in the middle of doing something like a very delicate spell that couldn't just be paused), decades of magical and job experience go out the window, and Harry takes him out easily.

I doubt it - in a flashback in "Welcome to the Jungle" we see Harry fighting Justin, and Justin is casting some kind of electric eel spell at Harry. So I think it really was a straight fight.

I don't think Harry's memories of it could be altered either, because the "perfect memory" thing he had as a ghost in GS probably would have bypassed that - Lea said that his ghost memories were not just stored in his head but remembered by the universe (not exact wording, but it seemed pretty clear IMO that it was "external storage".)

I think Harry's raw power is generally underestimated. He's stronger than Luccio was even pre-bodyswap, and Justin likely was no great shakes.

[peregrine]

And of course, if Jim goes to the "altered memories" well too many times and for too long, it basically undermines the entire series, because anything and everything we see may simply not happen.

[groinkick]

And of course, if Jim goes to the "altered memories" well too many times and for too long, it basically undermines the entire series, because anything and everything we see may simply not happen.

One thing I think that may have happened is Harry losing his Choice at a critical moment.  Much of the entire book series is about the Choices people make, and how important it is that people are free to have a Choice...  Well what if Harry at a critical moment was influenced in such a way that he didn't have a Choice?  Well when he found out he'd go ballistic, call the entire system bullshit and that all these gods were playing games with humanity...  Maybe he'd want to bring the entire system down, bring down all the gods.  :shrug: I dunno.