Are there more wizards like Elaine?

[Fcrate]

Exactly. Besides, wardens get to kill on suspicion.

[Arjan]

Exactly. Besides, wardens get to kill on suspicion.

That is for suspects without connections. Those are just killed resisting arrest.

[Mira]

Sure but we will never know if Ebenezar's influence could have saved his daughter, it never came up.

It appears that except for a select few, Rashid, LtW, and perhaps a couple more, the Council as a whole wasn't aware of Eb's relationship to either Margaret or Harry, if they had I think perhaps it would have turned out differently for Harry.

My point though, in the first couple of books Harry has an idealistic idea about magic thanks to Eb... That carried over to his view of the Council and being a member of the Council even if they did tend to treat him like crap...

[Kindler]

My point though, in the first couple of books Harry has an idealistic idea about magic thanks to Eb... That carried over to his view of the Council and being a member of the Council even if they did tend to treat him like crap...

Yeah. He still has that view of magic, but his view of the Council hasn't really changed. They're important and necessary, but he feels like they're bureaucratic jerks who play politics instead of doing real work to help. That, by the way, also seems to match Eb's perspective relatively closely.

Also, I think his view of the Council was more negative because of Morgan's decade-long harassment. He didn't trust the Council, but he HATED the Wardens.

[Mira]

Yeah. He still has that view of magic, but his view of the Council hasn't really changed. They're important and necessary, but he feels like they're bureaucratic jerks who play politics instead of doing real work to help. That, by the way, also seems to match Eb's perspective relatively closely.

Also, I think his view of the Council was more negative because of Morgan's decade-long harassment. He didn't trust the Council, but he HATED the Wardens.

No, he didn't like Morgan's harassment etc., but he still stayed with the Council, how many times have you heard him say, "the Council can help?"  If he really didn't believe in the Council do you think he would have encouraged Molly to turn herself in?  Yeah, it was close and political, but in the end Harry and Molly carried the day.  What chance would she have had had she decided to run, not just from getting the chop, but from becoming a full blown warlock?

[vultur]

Exactly. Besides, wardens get to kill on suspicion.

I'm not sure that's actually true. Harry does say that once, but it's when he's trying to intimidate somebody. Even Morgan, who seems to be pretty uniquely extreme among the Wardens we've seen, waited for proof in Storm Front -- because he followed the rules. If Wardens were actually allowed to kill on suspicion, he'd have killed Harry as soon as the first heart-exploded corpses turned up.

Now, a Warden who did kill on suspicion could almost certainly get away with it -- Molly's trial was the first in ten or twelve years -- but I think that they are supposed to wait for solid evidence (Sight, soulgaze or whatever), even if they don't go through the procedure of a trial.

[vultur]

If he really didn't believe in the Council do you think he would have encouraged Molly to turn herself in?  Yeah, it was close and political, but in the end Harry and Molly carried the day.  What chance would she have had had she decided to run, not just from getting the chop, but from becoming a full blown warlock?

That bit actually has always struck me as a bit odd. He really doesn't otherwise show signs of trusting the Council/Wardens that much... every time I read that part of PG I'm like "why don't you just confront Molly about it yourself and not tell anyone in the Council"? He could have still taken her as an apprentice.

I guess it's because Harry figured the Gatekeeper really knew what was going on from the beginning. (That's the only reason I can see why Harry seems to think Molly would get caught anyway -- Harry is the Regional Warden Commander for that area, and the Wardens are really really busy. Without the Gatekeeper, there'd be basically zero chance of her getting caught if Harry covered for her.)

he feels like they're bureaucratic jerks who play politics instead of doing real work to help. That, by the way, also seems to match Eb's perspective relatively closely.

Which seems pretty accurate from what we've seen them do.

Look how far the plan in WN got -- and it only got interrupted at all because Madrigal was intentionally taunting Harry into investigating. Something like that is precisely what the Council ought to be watching for, since they claim authority over all mortal practitioners.

And... they talk a lot about protecting humanity, but don't seem to actually do that much. There were 40 years or so between Kemmler's final death and the Vampire War, and the Wardens didn't manage to catch Grevane, Corpsetaker, etc. despite knowing who they were (Luccio certainly did) - one would think they'd be pretty high priority targets.

And ghouls don't seem to be Accords signatories - why hasn't the Council gone after them and other "unaffiliated" supernatural predators that prey on humanity? The Council's laws clearly don't consider them to be "people", so why aren't they long extinct?

[Fcrate]

They didn't stop the plan in WN because as the organization stands now, they are obsolete. Far too little wardens, not enough duties assigned to regular council members, very old and ineffective system of information management and intelligence gathering. A history of fear and mistrust towards the wardens that the whites played on. The wardens getting nearly wiped out in dead beat is probably the best thing that happened to them as an organization; New blood will help revitalise things and change the negative image the mortal practitioners think of the council. But they still need a major change in their entire system (And hierarchy)
About the ghouls and other unaffiliated supernatural predators, I assume they didn't exterminate them in fear of retaliation. Or escalation. Think of what the reds would have done if the council exterminated their favorite hirelings? If they show too much power AND willingness to protect humans from predators, said predators will surely gang up on them and wipe the council out. I'm not saying it's the correct attitude, but I do see the point. If that indeed was the reason.

[vultur]

They didn't stop the plan in WN because as the organization stands now, they are obsolete.

Yes, exactly.

A history of fear and mistrust towards the wardens that the whites played on.

True... but that fear and mistrust is the result of the White Council's policies, so it's still their own flaws that allowed the situation to occur. If they'd been on top of things and set up something equivalent to the Paranet a century or so ago, the problem would never have arisen.

But they still need a major change in their entire system (And hierarchy)

Yeah, I don't know if it is salvageable without a total re-structuring. "Rule by the oldest" just doesn't work in a rapidly changing world. And basically ignoring the vast majority of mortal practitioners as irrelevant unless they break a Law is also a bad idea.

About the ghouls and other unaffiliated supernatural predators, I assume they didn't exterminate them in fear of retaliation. Or escalation. Think of what the reds would have done if the council exterminated their favorite hirelings? If they show too much power AND willingness to protect humans from predators, said predators will surely gang up on them and wipe the council out.

In the current era of the books, sure. But what about two or three centuries ago? The  Vampire War was close because the Reds could use mortal technology and (probably far more importantly) because the Circle/Black Council was both messing up the White Council's war plans and helping out the Red Court by summoning Outsiders and such. The Reds' significant victories were due to those advantages, not their own assets. I can't see them daring to declare war in, say, 1700 AD over ghouls -- it would be incredibly one-sided.

[Arjan]

Harry's joined the wizard secret
police!" Bob burbled. "He gets to convict on suspicion and take
justice into his own hands! How cool is that!

Nobody contradicted him

Which doesn’t mean they all do but a rotten apple can get away with a lot.

Besides, he served warden Justin for years, he should know.

[peregrine]

Though having served Justin, that may have also given him a warped idea of what a Warden can do (officially).

[Fcrate]

Unlikely. Justin was preparing a future thrall, not an apprentice. Dresden had no idea what a warden was at the time. He didn't know about the white council, and he definitely didn't know about any rules of magic.

[Mira]

   I don't think that Harry thinks the Council is obsolete, the Merlin does have a point, with the past wars there are far too few Wizards to go around to do what is needed.   Yes, times have changed and most people think "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" is merely a Mickey Mouse short set to classical music..  However that being said, there are still kids being born with talent, and without guidance from qualified masters they turn into warlocks.  Once that happens there are even fewer wizards willing to put their necks on the line for a process of rehab that usually fails anyway...  Result is a mostly zero tolerance policy which often worse than the problem because it tends to throw the baby out with the bathwater... No, the Council is needed now more than ever, but there are just too few members willing to step up to go around.

[Arjan]

Though having served Justin, that may have also given him a warped idea of what a Warden can do (officially).

And a very good idea of what he can get away with, unofficially.

[Fcrate]

   I don't think that Harry thinks the Council is obsolete, the Merlin does have a point, with the past wars there are far too few Wizards to go around to do what is needed.   Yes, times have changed and most people think "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" is merely a Mickey Mouse short set to classical music..  However that being said, there are still kids being born with talent, and without guidance from qualified masters they turn into warlocks.  Once that happens there are even fewer wizards willing to put their necks on the line for a process of rehab that usually fails anyway...  Result is a mostly zero tolerance policy which often worse than the problem because it tends to throw the baby out with the bathwater... No, the Council is needed now more than ever, but there are just too few members willing to step up to go around.

The problem didn't start after the red's war. The problem was that they didn't evolve with the times, disregarding mortal technology because they can't use it, being set in the same ways even though the world population soared. The fact that Justin found and secreted away two council level young wizards (and strong ones at that) is an indication of how weak the council's hold on the mortal magical community became. And that was a few decades befoe any wars. As you said, there isn't enough of them, and they're too arrogant and snobbish to call for help or change how they operate.
Maybe Harry doesn't think they're obsolete, but I do. They keep getting hit, and not replenishing their numbers or adapting fast enough. The only thing they're doing  efficiently now is killing warlocks, and that just deprives them from future resources.
I'm not saying that they're not important. Their mere presence makes many predators think twice before considering mortal prey. But it's not enough.