Are there more wizards like Elaine?

[KurtinStGeorge]

I'll start by answering my own question so as to better define it.  We learned from Lea in Ghost Story that Mort Lindquist hid his true ability from the Council.  Lea said that Mortimer's power level was likely greater than Harry's, though limited to his own field of expertise.  Elaine deliberately hide her abilities from Warden Ramirez.  Harry knows Cowl is White Council material, he even speculates that Cowl and Kumori hide their identities because they are Council members, but Harry could be wrong.  At least one or maybe both Necromancers hide their identities of the more obvious reason that they simply don't want to be recognized at any place or time.  Even Necromancers have to go to the supermarket after all.  They can't really send a ghost and sending a zombie would require too much effort and defeat the purpose of being incognito.

I wonder if there are a significant number of wizards who are hiding their true abilities.  Some of them might be like Cowl and Kumori who chose a dark path and need to hide from the Council, while others might have met a warden when they were younger; say someone like Morgan explaining what happens to a person who breaks the laws of magic, and decided, "These White Council guys are as**oles, I don't want to be any part of their organization."

I find it hard to believe Elaine is alone in her feelings about the White Council.  I wouldn't be surprised if not everyone Harry dismisses as the "have nots of magic", the people who hang out at Mac's, are really below White Council standards.       

 

[WereElephant]

Are there more wizards like Elaine?

You mean Kumori?

No, I don't really think that. I just wanted all the Elaine = Kumori supporters to enjoy for that half a second.

I'll start by answering my own question so as to better define it.  We learned from Lea in Ghost Story that Mort Lindquist hid his true ability from the Council.  Lea said that Mortimer's power level was likely greater than Harry's, though limited to his own field of expertise.  Elaine deliberately hide her abilities from Warden Ramirez.  Harry knows Cowl is White Council material, he even speculates that Cowl and Kumori hide their identities because they are Council members, but Harry could be wrong.  At least one or maybe both Necromancers hide their identities of the more obvious reason that they simply don't want to be recognized at any place or time.  Even Necromancers have to go to the supermarket after all.  They can't really send a ghost and sending a zombie would require too much effort and defeat the purpose of being incognito.

I wonder if there are a significant number of wizards who are hiding their true abilities.  Some of them might be like Cowl and Kumori who chose a dark path and need to hide from the Council, while others might have met a warden when they were younger; say someone like Morgan explaining what happens to a person who breaks the laws of magic, and decided, "These White Council guys are as**oles, I don't want to be any part of their organization."

I find it hard to believe Elaine is alone in her feelings about the White Council.  I wouldn't be surprised if not everyone Harry dismisses as the "have nots of magic", the people who hang out at Mac's, are really below White Council standards.     

I find your proposition sound and acceptable. Unfortunately, its very nature means we won't know who fits the bill unless the narrative specifies.

[Quantus]

Absolutely.  For the bulk of the Casefiles the Council has been at War, and made no secret of their intent to draft anyone capable, adults and children alike.  Draft-dodging would absolutely be a thing.  The only potential catch is that they'd have to get clued in to the wider supernatural world /before/ the Wardens found and tested them, enough to understand the need.  That sort of information would not have been too readily available prior to the Paranet.

[wardenferry419]

But with the Paranet comes the possibility that a young, talented magic user might be swayed for or against the Council depending on  who they are interacting with on the Net.

[LordDresden2]

I'll start by answering my own question so as to better define it.  We learned from Lea in Ghost Story that Mort Lindquist hid his true ability from the Council.  Lea said that Mortimer's power level was likely greater than Harry's, though limited to his own field of expertise.  Elaine deliberately hide her abilities from Warden Ramirez.  Harry knows Cowl is White Council material, he even speculates that Cowl and Kumori hide their identities because they are Council members, but Harry could be wrong.  At least one or maybe both Necromancers hide their identities of the more obvious reason that they simply don't want to be recognized at any place or time.  Even Necromancers have to go to the supermarket after all.  They can't really send a ghost and sending a zombie would require too much effort and defeat the purpose of being incognito.

I wonder if there are a significant number of wizards who are hiding their true abilities.  Some of them might be like Cowl and Kumori who chose a dark path and need to hide from the Council, while others might have met a warden when they were younger; say someone like Morgan explaining what happens to a person who breaks the laws of magic, and decided, "These White Council guys are as**oles, I don't want to be any part of their organization."

I find it hard to believe Elaine is alone in her feelings about the White Council.  I wouldn't be surprised if not everyone Harry dismisses as the "have nots of magic", the people who hang out at Mac's, are really below White Council standards.     

There almost certainly are some other Council-level 'wizards' who hide their power and ability from the Council, but there aren't likely to be very many.

Why?  For one thing, Council-level potential is rare.  There aren't very many people in the world who have even the potential to reach that level to begin with.  Of them, the majority probably never get trained to the point where it matters, or else end up blowing themselves up or getting beheaded experimenting on their own.

To become a Council-level talent requires both that raw potential, and training to use it, and it's hard to find the kind of training that will bring you up to Council-level except from Council-level adepts.

Harry and Elaine, for example, if they had been adopted out to normal people and not Justin DuMorne, would likely never have come anywhere close to realizing their potential power.  They might or might not have learned to use some magic, but without high-level training they'd probably have remained minor players or worse..

DuMorne, of course, was a rogue Council member.

It's going to be a rare, rare person who can reach Council-level without the proper training, and it's going to be rare for anybody not linked to the Council to be able to provide it.

There are several thousand Council members, IIRC.  That sounds like a lot, but that's out of closing in on 8 billion people.  I doubt if there are more than, at the most, say a 100 people in the world with Council-level talent and training who are not part of it.

[Quantus]

There almost certainly are some other Council-level 'wizards' who hide their power and ability from the Council, but there aren't likely to be very many.

Why?  For one thing, Council-level potential is rare.  There aren't very many people in the world who have even the potential to reach that level to begin with.  Of them, the majority probably never get trained to the point where it matters, or else end up blowing themselves up or getting beheaded experimenting on their own.

To become a Council-level talent requires both that raw potential, and training to use it, and it's hard to find the kind of training that will bring you up to Council-level except from Council-level adepts.

Harry and Elaine, for example, if they had been adopted out to normal people and not Justin DuMorne, would likely never have come anywhere close to realizing their potential power.  They might or might not have learned to use some magic, but without high-level training they'd probably have remained minor players or worse..

DuMorne, of course, was a rogue Council member.

It's going to be a rare, rare person who can reach Council-level without the proper training, and it's going to be rare for anybody not linked to the Council to be able to provide it.

There are several thousand Council members, IIRC.  That sounds like a lot, but that's out of closing in on 8 billion people.  I doubt if there are more than, at the most, say a 100 people in the world with Council-level talent and training who are not part of it.

All very true.  The counterpoint though is that there are actually a lot more Council-level talents Now than there ever have been thanks to the 20th century population boom.  The problem isnt that these talents dont exist, it's that more often than not the council gets to them too late to stop them from going Warlock (stupid jedi mind trick) and end up chopping them up rather than training them.  And while the Council is Public Choice, they are far from the only clued in organization out there with an interest in the sorts of things a Mortal Wizard can do.  Literally every single Supernatural Power out there is going to have mortal practitioners stashed away somewhere, and Im willing to make that as blanket a statement as possible.  Id say even the Church likely has a few, though most of the clergy wouldnt realize their true power.  It would be pretty easy to recruit away from the organization who's opening recruitment move is to explain that one day s/he might be back to chop off your head if you misbehave.  Especially if you can offer the sorts of perks that Lara, Marcone, Bianca, LEA, etc etc etc could offer.

[WereElephant]

It would be pretty easy to recruit away from the organization who's opening recruitment move is to explain that one day s/he might be back to chop off your head if you misbehave.  Especially if you can offer the sorts of perks that Lara, Marcone, Bianca, LEA, etc etc etc could offer.

Practitioner head hunting. Magic use never felt so...corporate.

[Quantus]

Practitioner head hunting. Magic use never felt so...corporate.

Indeed.  The whole reason the White Council Fears the Black Council is that they'd be offering an obvious alternative

[Avernite]

Indeed.  The whole reason the White Council Fears the Black Council is that they'd be offering an obvious alternative

Still, that serves as a suitable counterpoint to the "standard" Supernatural powers having a pile of Wizards. If they did, the Black Council would be just more of the same.

Plus, the Red Court did not trot out a pile of them when it gathered the premier part of its power at Chichen Itza, and their spell was all Blood. We know some Vampires do learn, but they're not using a stash of Human wizards (and Changes suggests very few of the non-LordsofOuterNight Vampires were wizards, since they had no magical impact on the battle apart from Arianna in the duel - and she was aiming to take her place among the Lords).

[SerScot]

There almost certainly are some other Council-level 'wizards' who hide their power and ability from the Council, but there aren't likely to be very many.

Why?  For one thing, Council-level potential is rare.  There aren't very many people in the world who have even the potential to reach that level to begin with.  Of them, the majority probably never get trained to the point where it matters, or else end up blowing themselves up or getting beheaded experimenting on their own.

To become a Council-level talent requires both that raw potential, and training to use it, and it's hard to find the kind of training that will bring you up to Council-level except from Council-level adepts.

Harry and Elaine, for example, if they had been adopted out to normal people and not Justin DuMorne, would likely never have come anywhere close to realizing their potential power.  They might or might not have learned to use some magic, but without high-level training they'd probably have remained minor players or worse..

DuMorne, of course, was a rogue Council member.

It's going to be a rare, rare person who can reach Council-level without the proper training, and it's going to be rare for anybody not linked to the Council to be able to provide it.

There are several thousand Council members, IIRC.  That sounds like a lot, but that's out of closing in on 8 billion people.  I doubt if there are more than, at the most, say a 100 people in the world with Council-level talent and training who are not part of it.

I see your point.  Most would lack the training and finesse to “fake” the tests.

[LordDresden2]

I see your point.  Most would lack the training and finesse to “fake” the tests.

Or even to need to.

Elaine is more than good enough that she is properly entitled to demand a seat on the Council if she wants it, but for her own reasons she doesn't want it.  She's even good enough to 'fake it' well enough to pass as almost Council level, good but not quite good enough.  Not only can she fake it, she can fine-tune the fakery.  Which is useful for her because faking it at that level means she can wield some pretty potent magic without alerting the local Wardens of just how hot her talent is.

But if she had not been raised and trained by a rogue Council member, she probably not only wouldn't be able to fake it that precisely, but she wouldn't actually be at Council level for real.  If she knew any magic at all, it might be strong spells, but nothing like what would get you a Council seat.

[Quantus]

Still, that serves as a suitable counterpoint to the "standard" Supernatural powers having a pile of Wizards. If they did, the Black Council would be just more of the same.

Plus, the Red Court did not trot out a pile of them when it gathered the premier part of its power at Chichen Itza, and their spell was all Blood. We know some Vampires do learn, but they're not using a stash of Human wizards (and Changes suggests very few of the non-LordsofOuterNight Vampires were wizards, since they had no magical impact on the battle apart from Arianna in the duel - and she was aiming to take her place among the Lords).

Nah, we've actually seen it on stage (sort of) in the case of Maggie La Fey and the White Court.  The Red Court is a specifically bad example because they have no need to keep mortal, they'd just turn them into vampires (unless they had /very/ niche outsider goals and needed literal "mortal" magic).  But the vast majority of supernatural creatures would not be able to so easily absorb magical capabilities into their own ranks.  Some could be innately magical but would not be able to reach the full capabilities of a mortal wizard, as is the case with the White court.  many others would simply not have the numbers and/or breeding speeds to produce a significant number of wizards (which even applied to /humans/ until very recently.  The Fomor are scooping them up left and right, which might be a clue that the reason we/Harry has not heard of it more is that doing so would be some sort of Accords Violation, since the Council can very easily claim Authority over all mortal practitioners (if not all human-kind). 

[Bacchus]

i feel the need to point out that pre Internet, paranet, and mass information sharing, it would have been almost impossible to self train yourself without a rebel wizard of some sort teaching you directly, or stealing books from practitioners likely much stronger than you.

Now though you could probably have a weaker paraneter download scores real magic spell books deep on the bit torrent network or the darknet and print them out for a paranoid young wizard. id say give it 50 years to develop and that situation with secret council level mages will increase exponentially.
im talking about the apprentice stages because after the basics wizards don't seem to need much outside help to improve.
for example i downloaded dozens of rare old occult books once just to skim through, there were WAY more available.

[Quantus]

i feel the need to point out that pre Internet, paranet, and mass information sharing, it would have been almost impossible to self train yourself without a rebel wizard of some sort teaching you directly, or stealing books from practitioners likely much stronger than you.

Now though you could probably have a weaker paraneter download scores real magic spell books deep on the bit torrent network or the darknet and print them out for a paranoid young wizard. id say give it 50 years to develop and that situation with secret council level mages will increase exponentially.
im talking about the apprentice stages because after the basics wizards don't seem to need much outside help to improve.
for example i downloaded dozens of rare old occult books once just to skim through, there were WAY more available.

It really all depends on how much useless Crap they'd have to wade through to get to the actual, applicable Lore.  In a world were there is a real supernatural presence, I dont know if there would be less or maybe even MORE misinformation.  Either way you'd need someone or someTHING that is clued in to Teach you. The purely Mortal options are basically limited to the White Council, the Venators, and St Giles Bro's, all of which have a vested interest in keeping the Information restricted to an exclusive group.  All the non-mortal groups are likely going ot be more forthcoming but are going to have ulterior motives and less palatable means of Control (Unless you are talking to the Wraith Family specifically). 

[Mira]

One has to wonder about Harry though.   If he hadn't killed Justin, got caught and put under the Doom, and as a minor in the custody of Eb, wouldn't he also be avoiding the White Council and faking his abilities if he was tested?  I mean until he killed Justin and was captured by the Wardens, he didn't even know they existed.  The fact that he survived and was placed in the care of Eb, not only his grandfather [unknown at the time] but also highly placed/regarded on the Council would insure a favorable view of the Council..  If he learned about the Council from other points of view, he might well have avoided becoming a member. Or if he had earlier understood his mother's rebellion against them and their prejudice against him because of her, he may also have figured out a way to avoid becoming a member.