If Ivy dies.....

[Mira]

So the Archive, like a loaded gun, can be handed to a human without them really knowing or caring since the Mortal still gets to Choose how to live - but if you hand a loaded gun to someone in a combat zone, you are promoting them to target anyway so the human will probably cling to the weapon to scare off any would-be attackers.

That is why the Senior Council is so careful about it and monitoring Ivy so carefully.   I think the bigger question might be if all the humanizing influences Harry has had on her will make the Council reconsider her suitability as a host for the Archive?  If the answer is negative, what happens then?  Is it something that Ivy can just give up?  Will Eb have to execute her?  Which brings us back to the original question, what then?

[Quantus]

That is why the Senior Council is so careful about it and monitoring Ivy so carefully.   

Given how much they were underestimating her power, I dont actually think they are keeping strong tabs on her.  And between her own powers and likely political the limitations imposed by the Accords, Im not sure how much they'd be able to accomplish on her. 

I think the bigger question might be if all the humanizing influences Harry has had on her will make the Council reconsider her suitability as a host for the Archive?  If the answer is negative, what happens then?  Is it something that Ivy can just give up?  Will Eb have to execute her?  Which brings us back to the original question, what then?

I think we can be confident that the host cannot voluntarily give it up short of the suicide Ivy's mother used.  I have doubts as to whether even the Blackstaff could take her in a straight fight, and Im pretty confident the Council has no actual authority over either  Ivy Or the Archive. The best they could do is kill her and hope the next Archive that arrises is more amenable to them, which would pretty much make them a full-on Evil Organization of Evil.  That's all assuming the Senior Council is ignorant of the Oblivion War, since if they were they'd not want to make it leaderless for span of years or decades that it would take for the new archive to grow into the role.

[Mira]

Given how much they were underestimating her power, I dont actually think they are keeping strong tabs on her.  And between her own powers and likely political the limitations imposed by the Accords, Im not sure how much they'd be able to accomplish on her.

On the contrary,  reread Luccio's conversation with Harry about Ivy and the Archive, she doesn't underestimate the power for a second... Harry on the other hand does, mainly because he is coming down on the purely human side of the equation, Ivy is a very human little girl...  The dangers of that are clearly set out by Luccio, and she throws in why Bob is so dangerous as well..  Though she did not know at that point in time that Harry had Bob.

I think we can be confident that the host cannot voluntarily give it up short of the suicide Ivy's mother used.  I have doubts as to whether even the Blackstaff could take her in a straight fight, and Im pretty confident the Council has no actual authority over either  Ivy Or the Archive. The best they could do is kill her and hope the next Archive that arrises is more amenable to them, which would pretty much make them a full-on Evil Organization of Evil.  That's all assuming the Senior Council is ignorant of the Oblivion War, since if they were they'd not want to make it leaderless for span of years or decades that it would take for the new archive to grow into the role.

I think it most likely way more complicated than you think.  According to Luccio the Archive is supposed to be a totally neutral tool, thus it took part as judge in Harry's duel with the Red Court..  Also if merely killing the host solved the problem of who gets control one would think that Nic would have done it when he had the chance, instead he chose to try and damage Ivy's mind until she willingly came over to his side.  Granted Nic had other things on his agenda as well at the time like destroying holy swords and taking out holy knights..  Remains to be seen as to whether or not the Archive has some kind of "fail safe,"  should it go rouge or otherwise go out of control... Further more if one exists no one knows who holds that button...

[Quantus]

On the contrary,  reread Luccio's conversation with Harry about Ivy and the Archive, she doesn't underestimate the power for a second... Harry on the other hand does, mainly because he is coming down on the purely human side of the equation, Ivy is a very human little girl...  The dangers of that are clearly set out by Luccio, and she throws in why Bob is so dangerous as well..  Though she did not know at that point in time that Harry had Bob.

I dont really know what you are referring to. The conversation Im looking at has Luccio claiming that the council rated her on par with a Fae Lady and Harry said he thought they were underestimating her (granted by his reactions in CD he was likely himself underestimating the Ladies, but whatever).

I think you are talking about the long-term dangers of the Archive as set out by the Council's fears.  Im talking about her actual /Power/.   Powerful and Dangerous are very different things, especially in the DV.

I think it most likely way more complicated than you think.  According to Luccio the Archive is supposed to be a totally neutral tool, thus it took part as judge in Harry's duel with the Red Court..  Also if merely killing the host solved the problem of who gets control one would think that Nic would have done it when he had the chance, instead he chose to try and damage Ivy's mind until she willingly came over to his side.  Granted Nic had other things on his agenda as well at the time like destroying holy swords and taking out holy knights..  Remains to be seen as to whether or not the Archive has some kind of "fail safe,"  should it go rouge or otherwise go out of control... Further more if one exists no one knows who holds that button...

I still dont get your point.  I never said that killing the host would somehow claim you the Archive for yourself, just that a) I disagree with your assessment that the Council has any affiliation or authority over the Archive beyond them both being members of the Accords, and b) the I dont think the Council would actually have the firepower to Take her Down if they were to actually try an all-out offensive to impose their will upon her.

[Mira]

I think you are talking about the long-term dangers of the Archive as set out by the Council's fears.  Im talking about her actual /Power/.   Powerful and Dangerous are very different things, especially in the DV.

  I disagree

page 408 Small Favor

"The Archive was created as a neutral force.  A repository of knowledge.  But what if Ivy's unique circumstance allows her to ignore those limitations?  Imagine the results of the anger and bitterness and desire for revenge of all those lifetimes, combined with the power of the Archive and the restraint of a twelve year old?"
  "I'd rather not," I said quietly.
   "Nor would I," Luccio said.  "That would be a true nightmare.  All that knowledge, without conscience to direct it.."

No she doesn't spell out the Archive's powers on a one to ten scale if that is what you are looking for?  However she makes it pretty clear that the Council is well aware of how powerful the Archive is and how dangerous, plus the dangers of havin

I still dont get your point.  I never said that killing the host would somehow claim you the Archive for yourself, just that a) I disagree with your assessment that the Council has any affiliation or authority over the Archive beyond them both being members of the Accords, and b) the I dont think the Council would actually have the firepower to Take her Down if they were to actually try an all-out offensive to impose their will upon her.

The point is, if Luccio's fears for an out of control Archive comes to pass, someone will have to take it down or the results could be catastrophic for everyone...  Ergo, to whom would that take fall?   Who has the kind of power needed to do it?  Part of the Accords or not, if the Archive became a threat, I am willing to be that Mab would order it's take down, she hates disorder...  Plus the Archive is vulnerable, after all Ivy was kidnapped and held prisoner by Nic..

[Fcrate]

The Archive is less vulnerable every day. She's what? 19 or something now? Now I'm not saying it isn't doable, because a human sniper is still underestimated by the supernatural world. The quote from Small Favor reminded me that Ivy is in charge of the Archive. Maybe the Archive will always act to protect itself, but that is the extent of what it does. And I don't think Ivy can get rid of it, and if she was killed, the Archive will have to get extracted and the cycle restarted by someone who knows exactly how to do it. Who the "Someone" Is, I have no idea, but it must be the descendents of those who thought to guard all human knowledge against catastrophe... Nothing to do with Oblivion War, I think.

[Mira]

The Archive is less vulnerable every day. She's what? 19 or something now? Now I'm not saying it isn't doable, because a human sniper is still underestimated by the supernatural world. The quote from Small Favor reminded me that Ivy is in charge of the Archive. Maybe the Archive will always act to protect itself, but that is the extent of what it does. And I don't think Ivy can get rid of it, and if she was killed, the Archive will have to get extracted and the cycle restarted by someone who knows exactly how to do it. Who the "Someone" Is, I have no idea, but it must be the descendents of those who thought to guard all human knowledge against catastrophe... Nothing to do with Oblivion War, I think.

I agree for the most part, but we don't know at this point how it is transferred.   I would like to know the dynamic that went on between Ivy's mom and the Archive before her suicide.   Apparently she felt death was the only way to free herself, which she accomplished, so she had free will... If she was able to kill herself at will, perhaps if she went rouge she'd also be capable of using the Archive as Luccio described...

Here is another chilling thought, what if Ivy's mom didn't suicide but was driven to kill herself by the Archive?  The Archive decides that it's host isn't suitable so it kills it...

[Quantus]

  I disagree

Well:

Jim: @FitzMelech Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful. Smiley

See.  Different.

[/quote]
page 408 Small Favor

No she doesn't spell out the Archive's powers on a one to ten scale if that is what you are looking for?  However she makes it pretty clear that the Council is well aware of how powerful the Archive is and how dangerous, plus the dangers of havin

The point is, if Luccio's fears for an out of control Archive comes to pass, someone will have to take it down or the results could be catastrophic for everyone...  Ergo, to whom would that take fall?   Who has the kind of power needed to do it?  Part of the Accords or not, if the Archive became a threat, I am willing to be that Mab would order it's take down, she hates disorder...  Plus the Archive is vulnerable, after all Ivy was kidnapped and held prisoner by Nic..
[/quote]Ok.  This is not the topic I was discussing at all, but sure I agree that it would have been very bad and somebody would have to step up and fix it.  Top guesses on my list would be the Blackstaff, a KotC, or Harry himself as the general Avatar of Chaos. 

[Fcrate]

Here is another chilling thought, what if Ivy's mom didn't suicide but was driven to kill herself by the Archive?  The Archive decides that it's host isn't suitable so it kills it...

Interesting... I assume you also mean removing that part from it's memory? That'd be difficult to manage, as the Archive would KNOW the failsafe that kills an unsuitable host, and if the Archive knows, Ivy knows.

[Quantus]

What's chilling would be if The Archive has that much independent agency at all.  I mean, it's one thing to bear a mantle of power, it's a wildly different thing to be the host of an independent entity that might abandon and/or kill you on a whim.  That is precisely why the Winter Knight mantle is preferred over a Coin.

[Mira]

What's chilling would be if The Archive has that much independent agency at all.  I mean, it's one thing to bear a mantle of power, it's a wildly different thing to be the host of an independent entity that might abandon and/or kill you on a whim.  That is precisely why the Winter Knight mantle is preferred over a Coin.

   It could very well have that as a kind of fail safe...  How else would everyone else be protected from the kind of host that Luccio described?  What are the protections against mental illness?  Some severe and violent forms do not show up until the early to mid-twenties...  So what if Ivy becomes psychotic or develops signs of schizophrenia?  Can the Archive act independently if that happens?

[groinkick]

   It could very well have that as a kind of fail safe...  How else would everyone else be protected from the kind of host that Luccio described?  What are the protections against mental illness?  Some severe and violent forms do not show up until the early to mid-twenties...  So what if Ivy becomes psychotic or develops signs of schizophrenia?  Can the Archive act independently if that happens?

It could have also been Nemesis infection, or the work of a White Court Vamp (Who I suspect also helped get rid of Murphy's father).  Just as Maggie's curse sandbagged the White Court, so was the Archive.  There had to have been a period of time that she wasn't able to perform her duties, and even when she could probably not as effectively as an adult. Ivy's grandmother was also killed.

So Grandmother killed, mother commits suicide, Ivy new Archive as an infant.  Rather suspicious, almost as if someone is trying to eliminate the Archive.

[Mira]

It could have also been Nemesis infection, or the work of a White Court Vamp (Who I suspect also helped get rid of Murphy's father).  Just as Maggie's curse sandbagged the White Court, so was the Archive.  There had to have been a period of time that she wasn't able to perform her duties, and even when she could probably not as effectively as an adult. Ivy's grandmother was also killed.

So Grandmother killed, mother commits suicide, Ivy new Archive as an infant.  Rather suspicious, almost as if someone is trying to eliminate the Archive.

 It does appear that way, or alternatively get a cooperative host...  In a way you could say this was one of Nic's goals when he kidnapped Ivy, get her to accept a coin and play on his team... It could have worked this way, Ivy left as sort of a zombie shell, and the Fallen manipulating the Archive..