If Ivy dies.....

[WereElephant]

Oh, and I forgot.

If Ivy dies...

WE RIOT!

[Quantus]

Regarding the Archive as a Mantle and it's ability to violate the Free Will of the host:  Parents can apparently make Decisions for their children without violating Free Will.  It is presumably why the Fae are able to take a Baby as payment, or the old "Deal with the Devil for your First-born" trope. 

[Mira]

Regarding the Archive as a Mantle and it's ability to violate the Free Will of the host:  Parents can apparently make Decisions for their children without violating Free Will.  It is presumably why the Fae are able to take a Baby as payment, or the old "Deal with the Devil for your First-born" trope.

In the case of the Archive there seems to be more to it than that..  It seems to be handed down though the family from one eligible female member to another if I remember correctly.

[peregrine]

Regarding the Archive as a Mantle and it's ability to violate the Free Will of the host:  Parents can apparently make Decisions for their children without violating Free Will.  It is presumably why the Fae are able to take a Baby as payment, or the old "Deal with the Devil for your First-born" trope.

I don't know that is necessarily a Free Will issue, and more a Bargaining thing.  The Fae can have you eaten by dogs after all, that's hardly a Free Will thing.  Stealing a kid is similarly not a Free Will thing. 

[Quantus]

In the case of the Archive there seems to be more to it than that..  It seems to be handed down though the family from one eligible female member to another if I remember correctly.

Indeed, that was my point: the family Bargain is still Binding, even if the current individual did not personally and willfully Agree to it.  The fact that the Parents and/or Ancestors agreed to it is enough for the Obligation to be inherited. 

I don't know that is necessarily a Free Will issue, and more a Bargaining thing.  The Fae can have you eaten by dogs after all, that's hardly a Free Will thing.  Stealing a kid is similarly not a Free Will thing.

I was seeing it as both, about who has the Right to make a bargain on your behalf.  Now I dont know if average fae can have you eaten by dogs (Lea was only ever offering to turn him into one), but Queens can't and Bob was advising that Harry buy off Mab with a baby.  Granted he was advising Harry /steal/ a baby, not make his own, so in retrospect it may not apply. 

[peregrine]

Indeed, that was my point: the family Bargain is still Binding, even if the current individual did not personally and willfully Agree to it.  The fact that the Parents and/or Ancestors agreed to it is enough for the Obligation to be inherited. 
I was seeing it as both, about who has the Right to make a bargain on your behalf.  Now I dont know if average fae can have you eaten by dogs (Lea was only ever offering to turn him into one), but Queens can't and Bob was advising that Harry buy off Mab with a baby.  Granted he was advising Harry /steal/ a baby, not make his own, so in retrospect it may not apply.

Queens absolutely can have you eaten by dogs.  That's one of the things Bob mentions that they can do (along with tricking you into drowning) as opposed to killing you directly.

[Quantus]

Queens absolutely can have you eaten by dogs.  That's one of the things Bob mentions that they can do (along with tricking you into drowning) as opposed to killing you directly.

Oooh, that.  They can turn you into a stag and drop you near a wolf pack or some such, but they cant just sick their own hounds on you and kill you that way.  In the latter case the Hounds become their own tools (like the Guard is for Harry killing Aurora) and the queen cannot claim innocence. 

[Mira]

Indeed, that was my point: the family Bargain is still Binding, even if the current individual did not personally and willfully Agree to it.  The fact that the Parents and/or Ancestors agreed to it is enough for the Obligation to be inherited.

  One has to wonder if it works like the Loop-garou curse on the MacFinn family?  Harley MacFinn never had a choice whether he wanted to become one or not, he was just the next poor smuck in the family line to become it. 

Not saying it is the same, but then again the Archive is a bit of a curse, that is why Ivy's mom killed herself she wasn't prepared for and couldn't deal with the burden and restrictions..  I hope one day that Jim goes into the history of the Archive, who was the first host?  Did the original agree for her family for all eternity to carry the burden?  Or was it some kind of punishment or curse for some violation?  Or was it a random thing?  By that I mean knowing that the Archive had to be carefully controlled, Merlin, not to be confused with the Merlin put the names of several suitable families in his hat and pulled out a name?

[Kindler]

If the Archive were to be passed to anyone we've met, my money would be on Lydia from Grave Peril; I've always seen a connection between Cassandra's Tears and the Pythias, which are connected to the Archive. I could see Lydia (and anyone with Cassandra's Tears) being the non-Archive scions of the original.

[Quantus]

If the Archive were to be passed to anyone we've met, my money would be on Lydia from Grave Peril; I've always seen a connection between Cassandra's Tears and the Pythias, which are connected to the Archive. I could see Lydia (and anyone with Cassandra's Tears) being the non-Archive scions of the original.

That would be an interesting way to revive an act 1 guest-character. I like it

[Mira]

   The point is the Senior Council wants to keep a degree if control.. That kind of knowledge is power..  That is why they want Bob destroyed, who ever holds his skull is in control and he can be used for evil as we saw with Kemmler or good as we've seen with Harry and now Butters.

[Quantus]

Pretty sure the Archive predates the crap out of The Council and/or the original Merlin. Time Travel notwithstanding I dont see how he could have been involved, or why he'd need to be.

[pcpoet]

 Bob advising harry to buy off Mab with a baby and Molly's responsibilities as the winter queen has me thinking. is it common in fae to offer up ones children to serve protecting reality when they are in trouble with the winter court.

[Fcrate]

Bob advising harry to buy off Mab with a baby and Molly's responsibilities as the winter queen has me thinking. is it common in fae to offer up ones children to serve protecting reality when they are in trouble with the winter court.

Cold case suggests so. They pay a tithe in children, even if they're not happy with the court.

[Avernite]

I do wonder if we're confusing things by bringing in Choice vis-a-vis the Archive.

So far as I imagine it, Choice for Mortal only specifically pertains to things to do with good/evil and the Soul. The Archive gives power, but it may not have any effect on the Soul of the bearer (hence why Ivy could be turned by the Denarians, but Chose not to for long enough to get rescued).

So the Archive, like a loaded gun, can be handed to a human without them really knowing or caring since the Mortal still gets to Choose how to live - but if you hand a loaded gun to someone in a combat zone, you are promoting them to target anyway so the human will probably cling to the weapon to scare off any would-be attackers.

(This being specifically unlike Molly, since Ladyhood turns one towards the Fae, which dissolves/disperses/removes/? the Soul of the human involved over time).