If Ivy dies.....

[groinkick]

If Ivy were to die, who would take up her Mantle do you think?  Now it's supposed to go from mother to daughter, but if there is no daughter does it fade away or does it seek out a suitable host much like Molly taking up the Winter Lady Mantle?

If so, who would you see taking it?  Reason I ask is she could be murdered in Peace Talks...  It would make sense considering the Old Ones would want her gone.

Murphy maybe?  It would make her more relevant to the Dresden world. 

[Mira]

If Ivy were to die, who would take up her Mantle do you think?  Now it's supposed to go from mother to daughter, but if there is no daughter does it fade away or does it seek out a suitable host much like Molly taking up the Winter Lady Mantle?

If so, who would you see taking it?  Reason I ask is she could be murdered in Peace Talks...  It would make sense considering the Old Ones would want her gone.

Murphy maybe?  It would make her more relevant to the Dresden world.

Huge problem, one would think there would be a contingency for a thing but since they saddled a poor new born baby because she was the daughter of the last one, one has to wonder.

Murphy would be the worst choice...  Might make her more relevant in the Dresden world, but it would not be good for her, she is too independent a thinker..

[Quantus]

Best guess is that it would jump to the nearest genetic relative (and a bloodline that old would have /had/ to spread out a bit).   Highly doubt it would go to any of the named characters, unless it comes that one of them is actually a long-lost relative. 

[WereElephant]

I think it would fade away. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point in murdering her from the Old Ones' point of view. They'd just have to worry about someone else, possibly unknown to them, carrying the Archive later.

[Quantus]

I think it would fade away. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point in murdering her from the Old Ones' point of view. They'd just have to worry about someone else, possibly unknown to them, carrying the Archive later.

Huh?  The Old Ones would logically want her gone, so she has to be more vulnerable to make it happen more easily?  I dont follow your logic.

[WereElephant]

Huh?  The Old Ones would logically want her gone, so she has to be more vulnerable to make it happen more easily?  I dont follow your logic.

If the Archive's existence acts as a deterrent to the Old Ones returning, and that existence can be terminated, they would attempt to terminate it. This is the case where the Archive ceases to exist when its bearer dies without a specified heir.

If the Archive's existence acts as a deterrent to the Old Ones returning, but that existence can only be periodically suspended, they would only target it during times critical to their operations. This is the case where the Archive finds a new, indeterminate bearer when its current bearer dies without heir.

I was thinking along the lines of effort put in vs results from their point of view. If they can get rid of the Archive permanently, then the Old Ones would be salivating for a chance at Ivy. If they can only temporarily put the Archive out of commission by killing the host, they wouldn't risk as many resources/personnel unless the timing of the Archive's absence was especially opportune.

Does that make sense? It does in my head, anyway, but considering this post deals with the concept of Mantles yet again, I'm already mentally fatigued. Could be mixing things up.

[WereElephant]

If the Archive's existence acts as a deterrent to the Old Ones returning, and that existence can be terminated, they would attempt to terminate it. This is the case where the Archive ceases to exist when its bearer dies without a specified heir.

If the Archive's existence acts as a deterrent to the Old Ones returning, but that existence can only be periodically suspended, they would only target it during times critical to their operations. This is the case where the Archive finds a new, indeterminate bearer when its current bearer dies without heir.

I was thinking along the lines of effort put in vs results from their point of view. If they can get rid of the Archive permanently, then the Old Ones would be salivating for a chance at Ivy. If they can only temporarily put the Archive out of commission by killing the host, they wouldn't risk as many resources/personnel unless the timing of the Archive's absence was especially opportune.

Does that make sense? It does in my head, anyway, but considering this post deals with the concept of Mantles yet again, I'm already mentally fatigued. Could be mixing things up.

Oh, you mean "Why would them wanting the Archive to be destructible make it destructible?" Sorry, got mixed up. That's a guess based on it adding narrative stakes to the situation.

[Quantus]

Oh, you mean "Why would them wanting the Archive to be destructible make it destructible?" Sorry, got mixed up. That's a guess based on it adding narrative stakes to the situation.

Ah, kk.  Ya that was my confusion, I thought Id missed some new, more direct link between the Archive (or rather it's actual origin) and the Outsiders.

Fwiw, It doesnt look like the Archive is specifically geared toward an anti-Outsider goal (especially given that it primarily targets beings from the NN), and there has been some debate as to whether Outsiders are themselves subject to Oblivion at all (being in theory qualitatively different from the NN creatures that it targets).

[groinkick]

some of the reason I think Murphy could be a good replacement are:

More side stories about the Oblivion war with a well established and familiar character.

Romantic relationship with Kincaid (I personally think the ship has sailed on Harry/Murphy).

She becomes more relevant to the books in general.

[Mira]

some of the reason I think Murphy could be a good replacement are:

More side stories about the Oblivion war with a well established and familiar character.

Romantic relationship with Kincaid (I personally think the ship has sailed on Harry/Murphy).

She becomes more relevant to the books in general.

Um, your reasons are the reasons she shouldn't be..  I need to reread the bit where Luccio warns Harry about humanizing Ivy too much..  Murphy is all too human and tend to see things her own way, that got her into trouble trying to wield and judge with a Holy Sword, which clearly she shouldn't have done... I can see her not agreeing with or feeling morally able to carry out some of the things the Archive must do, that would spell trouble for her..

[Fcrate]

Um, your reasons are the reasons she shouldn't be..  I need to reread the bit where Luccio warns Harry about humanizing Ivy too much..  Murphy is all too human and tend to see things her own way, that got her into trouble trying to wield and judge with a Holy Sword, which clearly she shouldn't have done... I can see her not agreeing with or feeling morally able to carry out some of the things the Archive must do, that would spell trouble for her..

I agree. And the forced neutrality? Not a chance. Murphy is only good as a mortal, capable cop.
I think if Ivy dies, it's poof, gone. Unless someone knows the workings of the creation of the Archive and "Salvages" the database from her brain with some good old fashioned necromancy, then picks some poor fool to put the archive in.

[groinkick]

I agree. And the forced neutrality? Not a chance. Murphy is only good as a mortal, capable cop.

Murphy may not have a Choice if the Mantle has some control over the person.

[peregrine]

Murphy may not have a Choice if the Mantle has some control over the person.

I can't imagine that a Mantle can do that without some sort of Choice being made.  Even with Molly, while Jim said it's inevitable, it's not immediate.  So it may be one of those things where you're constantly being asked "How bout now?  How bout now?  What about now?" until you say yes.

Likewise, while the Archive Mantle may be able to say "You're my home now" I don't think it'd be able to immediately start dictating her actions.  Keep in mind of course that Ivy's mom was able to suicide despite being the Archive.

The way I see an unwilling host(ess) playing out is that she gets saddled with the knowledge and Mantle, but still retains enough of her Free Will at first.  But the Mantle can keep feeding her information about what's happening in the world, the importance of the job, things like that, to wear down her resistance until she Chooses to accept it.

Assuming of course that the Archive is in the flesh and brains of the person, and not some sort of nebulous construct that would exist even were Ivy to die, and possibly be recovered from the aether by someone else who can whip together the right magic. 

[groinkick]

I can't imagine that a Mantle can do that without some sort of Choice being made.  Even with Molly, while Jim said it's inevitable, it's not immediate.  So it may be one of those things where you're constantly being asked "How bout now?  How bout now?  What about now?" until you say yes.

Likewise, while the Archive Mantle may be able to say "You're my home now" I don't think it'd be able to immediately start dictating her actions.  Keep in mind of course that Ivy's mom was able to suicide despite being the Archive.

The way I see an unwilling host(ess) playing out is that she gets saddled with the knowledge and Mantle, but still retains enough of her Free Will at first.  But the Mantle can keep feeding her information about what's happening in the world, the importance of the job, things like that, to wear down her resistance until she Chooses to accept it.

Assuming of course that the Archive is in the flesh and brains of the person, and not some sort of nebulous construct that would exist even were Ivy to die, and possibly be recovered from the aether by someone else who can whip together the right magic.

A little baby had no Choice when the Mantle went to her.  Even so whenever duty calls, Murphy answers.  Police officer running into battle, KoTC fighting at Chicken Pizza, Harry asking her to take on Nicodemus...  My guess is that when being given the Choice to face the Old Gods in a secret war where humanity is in the balance she'd choose to say yes once she was convinced there was a reason the Mantle was seeking her.  Or if Ivy knew her death was coming and that Murphy was the one she thought best to replace her.

[Mira]

A little baby had no Choice when the Mantle went to her.  Even so whenever duty calls, Murphy answers.  Police officer running into battle, KoTC fighting at Chicken Pizza, Harry asking her to take on Nicodemus...  My guess is that when being given the Choice to face the Old Gods in a secret war where humanity is in the balance she'd choose to say yes once she was convinced there was a reason the Mantle was seeking her.  Or if Ivy knew her death was coming and that Murphy was the one she thought best to replace her.

But that doesn't keep her from having her own ideas and thinking what is right or wrong..  At C.I. she allowed herself to become a sock puppet of an archangel and she didn't like it, but it worked out for one night, not long term...  She rejected the Sword because she didn't believe in the rules, chose to fight with it in spite of her belief that the Nickleheads didn't deserve a chance at redemption.. Judged Nic, and got a Sword broken...   I cannot see her mentally standing up to the demands of the Archive....

Likewise, while the Archive Mantle may be able to say "You're my home now" I don't think it'd be able to immediately start dictating her actions.  Keep in mind of course that Ivy's mom was able to suicide despite being the Archive.

Oh I think it does, and it takes away the freedom of the host...  If I remember right Ivy's mom received the Archive as a teenager and rebelled because she never had enough freedom before hand to adjust to it...   I cannot see Murphy becoming the sock puppet of the Archive anymore than she stood for very long being the sock puppet of an Archangel..

I don't think choice  to accept enters into it very much either in case of the Archive...  The point was Ivy's mom didn't have a choice to accept, and being a small baby Ivy certainly never had a choice..