Could Mavra be under Eb's control?

[Mr. Death]

I'm pretty sure the intent is that the Circle is what Harry had dubbed the Black Council before he really understood it.

[Ananda]

Cowl is the one who mentions "The Circle," so it apparently is a thing in some capacity.

Yes, but that’s not Dresden’s conception of a black council. He imagined it early on as being rather specific when he thought the “plot” so to say was something other than it is. Going on memory from a few years ago, he thought this bc was a cabal of wizards trying to take over the white council from within for their own reasons. There simply is no such agency as the scope is much larger than Dresden imagined. Yes, there is a threat to the wc, but it’s neither localised nor specific to them. It’s a multidimensional plot looking to nullify their universe, not an internal power struggle.

Just because there is some group named at some point doesn’t make them interchangeable. Unless Dresden keeps talking about a black council in new books, I’d say it’s an outdated concept.

[nedserD C B yrraH]

I keep thinking the Circle is actually Anti-Outsider. I see it as similar to the group that Maggie Sr. invited Eb to dinner to meet. You had a member of the White Court, Red Court and White Council confirmed. Arianna recognized the danger that her mad King put reality in and acted against him. Lord Raith was trying to get in on the Starborn action this time around. I expect that a KotBD(given Nic's reaction to Hellfire at AT and the saint line) was there too, maybe Mavra (a MM ally)as well. A group of people with power that have a vested interest in keeping reality and humanity going. But that group would allow very different sacrifices for that end than our Grey Council.

[Mr. Death]

Anti outsider....when the only known attendees were affiliated with outsiders.

I don't think that tracks

[Kindler]

Anti outsider....when the only known attendees were affiliated with outsiders.

I don't think that tracks

We are still assuming that the Circle, or some members within it, were responsible for summoning the Outsiders for the Red Court during Proven Guilty, and various other occasions. Someone taught the Striga how to summon He Who Walks Behind in Blood Rites. And Cowl himself, the only member of the Circle who identifies himself as such in White Night has been very, very strongly connected to Outsiders, both through the Athame/Nemesis infection, and the events of White Night, wherein we are told by Lash that Vittorio is possessed by an Outsider, who is an underling of Cowl's.

[Mr. Death]

We are still assuming that the Circle, or some members within it, were responsible for summoning the Outsiders for the Red Court during Proven Guilty, and various other occasions. Someone taught the Striga how to summon He Who Walks Behind in Blood Rites. And Cowl himself, the only member of the Circle who identifies himself as such in White Night has been very, very strongly connected to Outsiders, both through the Athame/Nemesis infection, and the events of White Night, wherein we are told by Lash that Vittorio is possessed by an Outsider, who is an underling of Cowl's.

I don't think we have to assume -- as you say, the evidence is piled up pretty high at this point.

In addition, we know for a fact that Cowl was in league with the Red Court, enough to get an invitation to Bianca's ascension and conspire with them to give Lea the Athame. So that puts him in cahoots with the Red Court and by extension with Arianna.

As for HWWB, we know that Lord Raith had Outsider-powered immunity to magic. He was the one who was behind the Striga plot. It seems pretty obvious to me that he is the reason HWWB is still kicking around after Harry killed/banished/incinerated him.

I don't see coincidence here. At the party were one guy who we know for a fact was in league with a major Outsider and a vampire who is only a degree or two of on-screen separation from the wizard we know was in league with the Red Court and summoning Outsiders.

I would not be surprised at all to learn that Cowl was either at or under discussion at that dinner party.

[Kindler]

I don't think we have to assume -- as you say, the evidence is piled up pretty high at this point.

In addition, we know for a fact that Cowl was in league with the Red Court, enough to get an invitation to Bianca's ascension and conspire with them to give Lea the Athame. So that puts him in cahoots with the Red Court and by extension with Arianna.

As for HWWB, we know that Lord Raith had Outsider-powered immunity to magic. He was the one who was behind the Striga plot. It seems pretty obvious to me that he is the reason HWWB is still kicking around after Harry killed/banished/incinerated him.

I don't see coincidence here. At the party were one guy who we know for a fact was in league with a major Outsider and a vampire who is only a degree or two of on-screen separation from the wizard we know was in league with the Red Court and summoning Outsiders.

I would not be surprised at all to learn that Cowl was either at or under discussion at that dinner party.

Yep, pretty much. What I don't get is what they have to gain from the Outsiders winning.

I've tossed around the idea that they might want to let the Outsiders in to actually destroy this reality, because there is some function by which they can reboot it, or create another one that matches their idea of an ideal reality. I don't know how they'd accomplish that.

[raidem]

Actually there is WOJ that strongly states there is a group of wizards that feel constrained by white council and are rebelling against it.  They don't want to be bound by rules, they want to act as they please. So, it follows that these wizards would group up to create a black council.  This would be distinct though from an attempt to destroy the universe.  I think there is a group of wizards who want the white council weakened so that they can practice how they want without feeling constrained by the WC.  They want to rule this world, therefore it follows they want this world to exist. 

I think Nemesis however would likely find it easier to compromise this group who is already practicing black magic than it would those who aren't.

[Kindler]

I think Nemesis however would likely find it easier to compromise this group who is already practicing black magic than it would those who aren't.

I'd find it a little boring if, for example, Cowl was just infected with Nemesis rather than a willing ally. And the idea is that they'd rule a world that they'd somehow create—a better one (in their opinion). I want there to be a reason they're working with the Outsiders beyond Nemesis.

[raidem]

Well I think they want the Outsiders assistance to shake things up so that they then can emerge on top.  I don't think they want to destroy this world which is what the Outsiders want.  I want it to be both.  They are dealing with Outsiders on their own free will but are also infected by Nemesis, which is what Maeve was ultimately doing.

[Quantus]

I see two possible sides to it, and they are not paramutual.

On the one side, I think it possible and even likely that some of the leaders of the Circle/BC/Cowl&Co like Cowl are entirely willing conspirators, but I dont need all their membership to be similarly informed.  Just like with Nic and the like the Denarians, not all have to be equal partners in control, but those that /are/ will have more Power and/or Agency to enact their schemes.  Separately, I am fully in the camp that thinks the actual supernatural element of the Black Magic taint is an accumulation of incremental Outsider Taint (may or may not be the same entity behind the fae Nemesis Taint we've seen) caused by a Mortal willfully Choosing to twist Magic back on itself in one of the 7 most extreme ways, leading to tiny fractures in reality that allow Outsider influence to seep in.  This mostly hinges on the connection between the Blackstaff's functional protection and it's theorized roots in the Winter Court