Could Mavra be under Eb's control?

[Snark Knight]

Do we know this for a fact?  Harry noticed that the fabric of her medieval outfit was cotton rather than wool, meaning it was of modern manufacture.  Maybe Mavra is old, but no so old as she pretends.  Mavra would pretend to be a few hundred years older than her actual age in order to make herself a more mysterious figure, enhance her reputation and make other magic users think twice about taking her on in a fight.  The Black Court's greatest strength before Stoker's book was lack of knowledge about them.  Mavra might have decided this was a good personal defence too.
However, that's just a WAG, and not a very serious one.  There's something really pathetic about Mavra sticking with medieval clothing; which in every painting, period movie or museum manikin I've seen in such outfits, doesn't look very comfortable.  Mostly it looks like it was designed to keep people warm, which isn't really a problem Mavra faces.  It's like she's trying to hold onto a tiny piece of who she once was.         

I was going by the WOJ Quantus quoted, not just her clothing. Comfort is probably just not a big deal for her, and she can't be bothered keeping up with the food's changing ideas of what's fashionable.

If she's into putting defensive enchantments or concealed light armour modifications on her clothing, she might just be making period replacements because it's what she knows how to make herself, rather than for the sake of residual attachment to her human identity.

[Kindler]

Nah, that'd fit fine with her beliefs, as Luccio put them in Turncoat. Grey areas of magic, White Council directly acting, instead of reacting and being passive.

I don't think so. My interpretation of the picture Luccio painted was that she wanted the Council to do more, to expand the explicit Laws to protect more people—not act outside them. She already thinks the Laws are inadequate, and finds out that her dad is allowed to break the few (reasonable) restrictions already placed on the rest of wizards? That's an ideological disagreement I wouldn't want to be in the middle of.

[SerScot]

LoL..  Really think Eb is dark side eh?

I don’t think he believes he is, but, from the White Council’s perspective he may be.

[jonas]

I don't think so. My interpretation of the picture Luccio painted was that she wanted the Council to do more, to expand the explicit Laws to protect more people—not act outside them. She already thinks the Laws are inadequate, and finds out that her dad is allowed to break the few (reasonable) restrictions already placed on the rest of wizards? That's an ideological disagreement I wouldn't want to be in the middle of.

To use Magic to command the Law itself, to choose for others situations, to align one side as 'innocent', Mmmm... Seems to me she wanted to apply a systematic belief to what magic should be used for by it's holders that does not align with it's current condition. Sounds Dangerous... and a bit like some mythos's I recognize.

[SerScot]

Kindler,

I don't think so. My interpretation of the picture Luccio painted was that she wanted the Council to do more, to expand the explicit Laws to protect more people—not act outside them. She already thinks the Laws are inadequate, and finds out that her dad is allowed to break the few (reasonable) restrictions already placed on the rest of wizards? That's an ideological disagreement I wouldn't want to be in the middle of.

What's hard about that is we are hearing everything from Luccio's perspective.  She is very conservative when it comes to what magical laws should exist and how they should be applied.  I sincerely wish we could get something written by Maggie Sr. regarding what she wanted and believed or a scene in flashback with her advocating her position. 

My point on Eb is not that he is a mustache twirling villain.  Far from it.  If Eb is "Black Council/Circle" I think we have to reexamine what it is the Black Council/Circle are advocating.  There is a third possibility too that Eb has been operating outside White Council sanction for some time and that the "Black Council/Circle" are a more radical splinter of the faction that Eb has been leading that is seeking change to Magical Laws which has forced Eb back into the arms of the White Council to fight that splinter faction.

Remember, Eb was willing (back in the day) to sit down to dinner with White and Red Court Vampires.  That means he was willing to talk to beings that preyed upon humans.  It suggests a certain degree of moral flexibility in Eb that may not be currently how he is portrayed.

[Mr. Death]

I don’t think he believes he is, but, from the White Council’s perspective he may be.

If the White Council believed Ebenezer was dark side, they wouldn't have given him the authority to break the laws.

Remember, Eb was willing (back in the day) to sit down to dinner with White and Red Court Vampires.  That means he was willing to talk to beings that preyed upon humans.  It suggests a certain degree of moral flexibility in Eb that may not be currently how he is portrayed.

Not quite. He was willing to go to a dinner with Maggie, who hadn't told him who all would be there.

And in Storm Front, Harry was willing to talk to Bianca. He's been willing to talk to Lara repeatedly. This graph means nothing. As Accords members, all wizards are expected to be able to behave themselves and talk to the vampire courts in social settings.

[Kindler]

Kindler,

What's hard about that is we are hearing everything from Luccio's perspective.  She is very conservative when it comes to what magical laws should exist and how they should be applied.  I sincerely wish we could get something written by Maggie Sr. regarding what she wanted and believed or a scene in flashback with her advocating her position.

Oh, I absolutely agree; we don't have enough information, and none of it is unbiased. There's even a function to have those flashbacks; the gem she left Harry operates similarly to research notes. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a private journal on there. I've been patiently waiting for Harry to investigate that gem more thoroughly since Cold Days. We only had one flippin' scene with it, three books ago; it's bound to come back soon.

That said, I think that Luccio was fair in her discussion about Margaret. Luccio being conservative about the Laws doesn't mean that Margaret didn't want the Laws to go further than they did, or for the Council to get more involved in protecting vanillas from the Wizards in it. My point is that Margaret demonstrated, from Luccio's perspective, distaste that wizards could screw around with vanilla mortals in absurd ways without technically breaking any of the Laws. This means, to me, that Margaret wished the Laws could be changed, or interpreted differently (the Spirit of the Law, rather than its Letter) so that wizards couldn't do those kinds of things without punishment. To my point, I'd imagine that Ebenezer being free to break the LETTER of the Laws instead of just their spirit would not sit well with Margaret at all, who already thought the Laws were too weak.

All of that aside, I do very much want to hear Margaret explain herself; she seems like an awfully interesting character. Maybe Jim might want to add a novella from her perspective, after the important-to-the-series details about her are revealed in the main novels. Might be a good pre-BAT addition to the series.

My point on Eb is not that he is a mustache twirling villain.  Far from it.  If Eb is "Black Council/Circle" I think we have to reexamine what it is the Black Council/Circle are advocating.  There is a third possibility too that Eb has been operating outside White Council sanction for some time and that the "Black Council/Circle" are a more radical splinter of the faction that Eb has been leading that is seeking change to Magical Laws which has forced Eb back into the arms of the White Council to fight that splinter faction.

I don't think Eb is Black Council either. I think Eb is Harry taken to his logical extreme; do what's right, and damn the cost, even if it runs counter to the White Council's position. I don't really get why a lot of fans think Eb is a villain (or well-intentioned extremist, however you want to put it). People are free to believe whatever they like, of course, but I just don't get that interpretation.

Remember, Eb was willing (back in the day) to sit down to dinner with White and Red Court Vampires.  That means he was willing to talk to beings that preyed upon humans.  It suggests a certain degree of moral flexibility in Eb that may not be currently how he is portrayed.

Yeah. So is Harry, for what it's worth, which is part of what I mean when I say Eb is Harry taken to the extreme.

[Mr. Death]

I don't think Eb is Black Council either. I think Eb is Harry taken to his logical extreme; do what's right, and damn the cost, even if it runs counter to the White Council's position. I don't really get why a lot of fans think Eb is a villain (or well-intentioned extremist, however you want to put it). People are free to believe whatever they like, of course, but I just don't get that interpretation.

Yeah, I don't get it either -- the actions we've seen him take on screen are against either confirmed or suspected Black Council/Circle agents, including forming his own Grey Council specifically in response to the Black Council, and yet it seems like half the forum takes it as a given that he's helping or leading or had formed the group he keeps attacking.

[Kindler]

Yeah, I don't get it either -- the actions we've seen him take on screen are against either confirmed or suspected Black Council/Circle agents, including forming his own Grey Council specifically in response to the Black Council, and yet it seems like half the forum takes it as a given that he's helping or leading or had formed the group he keeps attacking.

I get having some reservations about him, because he kept a bunch of secrets and he does some shady things, but I just can't see him being a part of Cowl's entourage (or Cowl), for example. Doesn't fit what we know about him.

[groinkick]

I get having some reservations about him, because he kept a bunch of secrets and he does some shady things

Which is exactly something you would expect from the wetworks man of the White Council.

[SerScot]

Mr. Death

If the White Council believed Ebenezer was dark side, they wouldn't have given him the authority to break the laws.Not quite. He was willing to go to a dinner with Maggie, who hadn't told him who all would be there.

I'm presuming that the White Council (or at least those in charge of the White Council) are unaware of Eb's not fully loyal attitude.

And in Storm Front, Harry was willing to talk to Bianca. He's been willing to talk to Lara repeatedly. This graph means nothing. As Accords members, all wizards are expected to be able to behave themselves and talk to the vampire courts in social settings.

A fair point.  I missed that nuance. 

[SerScot]

Mr. Death,

Yeah, I don't get it either -- the actions we've seen him take on screen are against either confirmed or suspected Black Council/Circle agents, including forming his own Grey Council specifically in response to the Black Council, and yet it seems like half the forum takes it as a given that he's helping or leading or had formed the group he keeps attacking.

I believe I have written in the past speculating that the "Grey Council" could be the "Black Council" after all we only know of three members.  I have to wonder if this is a way to pull Harry into their orbit without Harry knowing what they are doing.

[Mr. Death]

Mr. Death

I'm presuming that the White Council (or at least those in charge of the White Council) are unaware of Eb's not fully loyal attitude.

Ah, I misinterpreted your line to mean you thought the White Council views him as darkside, when what you meant was they would view him as darkside if they knew, yes?

Mr. Death,

I believe I have written in the past speculating that the "Grey Council" could be the "Black Council" after all we only know of three members.  I have to wonder if this is a way to pull Harry into their orbit without Harry knowing what they are doing.

Considering Odin is also Grey Council and he is clearly not Black Council, and that the single Grey Council action we've seen was a massive strike against the Black Council's biggest weapon -- with Lea and by extension Mab calling them into that battle directly -- this argument just does not hold any water with me.

I don't see any actions Ebenezer has taken -- or has had attributed to him -- that indicate he could possibly be Black Council.

[Quantus]

Ah, I misinterpreted your line to mean you thought the White Council views him as darkside, when what you meant was they would view him as darkside if they knew, yes?
Considering Odin is also Grey Council and he is clearly not Black Council, and that the single Grey Council action we've seen was a massive strike against the Black Council's biggest weapon -- with Lea and by extension Mab calling them into that battle directly -- this argument just does not hold any water with me.

I don't see any actions Ebenezer has taken -- or has had attributed to him -- that indicate he could possibly be Black Council.

I agree entirely, I dont think McCoy is actually Black, as there are just too many things past and present that would make no sense if he were on that Team. 

That being said, as a Devil's Advocate statement: I would not include Lea and by extension Mab's presence in Changes  in your reasoning.  According to Lea there was a Back-room deal between her and Vadderung involved in what went down in Changes. And of any faction, SG proved that Mab would have no qualms about working beside an enemy if the bargain were sound. 

[Mr. Death]

I agree entirely, I dont think McCoy is actually Black, as there are just too many things past and present that would make no sense if he were on that Team. 

That being said, as a Devil's Advocate statement: I would not include Lea and by extension Mab's presence in Changes  in your reasoning.  According to Lea there was a Back-room deal between her and Vadderung involved in what went down in Changes. And of any faction, SG proved that Mab would have no qualms about working beside an enemy if the bargain were sound.

There is a difference between working with an enemy and working with The Enemy. The Red Court were Black Council weapons -- Cowl used them and allied with them, as did the Fomor. If the Black Council is Outsider-aligned (and Cowl's presence heavily implies if not confirms it is), then Mab is definitely against it.

Besides, Mab wasn't working beside any enemies in Skin Game. Her goal was explicitly, from the start, to undermine and subvert Nicodemus's plans.