AI and Magic

[WereElephant]

I doubt this will ever got touched upon, but I had an interesting thought. Suppose that, in the Dresdenverse, AI is created, and it becomes not just a really smart robot, but an actual synthetic lifeform. How would such a being interact with the magical world? Would being in simple proximity to a wizard threaten its existence? Or would the combination of life and technology negate the Murphyonic field due to personal arcane sovereignty, or something like that? Could an AI become a magic user?

[Griffyn612]

I don't see why not.  Mab already classified computers as ferromancy, and the Murphyonic field only affects humans.  AI would be more like a SoI than a human.

But I do think it'd take true sentience, which we're still far off from.

[Quantus]

I doubt this will ever got touched upon, but I had an interesting thought. Suppose that, in the Dresdenverse, AI is created, and it becomes not just a really smart robot, but an actual synthetic lifeform. How would such a being interact with the magical world? Would being in simple proximity to a wizard threaten its existence? Or would the combination of life and technology negate the Murphyonic field due to personal arcane sovereignty, or something like that? Could an AI become a magic user?

In the DV I would strongly expect that any emergence of True AI would actually be some modernization of the Spirit of Intellect process, where'd they'd be creating a powerful enough "container" for intelligence that it would call a spirit from the NN.  Not entirely unlike how there are now real monsters based on modern toys. 

At that point: Yes, such an AI would be capable of magic, of interacting with technology, and anything else we've seen Bob do. 

[jonas]

I like that line of thought there Q,

[Kindler]

But I do think it'd take true sentience, which we're still far off from.

Yeah. There's a lot of buzz about "machine learning" and "artificial intelligence algorithms," but neither one is AI as we think of it. Machine learning takes prior solutions and applies them to similar or congruent problems. Does the same thing with data; eyetracking software might gather enough data points to predict where your eyes will focus on specific portions of a UI, then an algorithm might spit out code that takes advantage of that data.

It's actually pretty close to how Luccio describes the Greek Pythia—predicting the future based on prior data. But regardless, it's not true AI. There's a big leap from gathering and regurgitating information to consciousness.

Interesting thought about a Spirit of Intellect. It's basically what happens in Age of Ultron.

[RobReece]

even if an AI acquired sentience, that wouldn't give it a spirit, without that, would it even be able to perceive much of magic?  outside of any physical manifestations of course.

[groinkick]

It comes down to 2 questions "Why do mortal humans have magic?", and "Can real sentient life forms be created via technology?"  The first question probably has an answer, the 2nd question is hotly debated in the real world and one I don't know if Jim would even bother to tackle unless Harry goes to the future.  The future of the Dresden Files appears to be the opposite of advancement and more about mass destruction of civilization...  So I don't think there will be advanced technology.

[Griffyn612]

even if an AI acquired sentience, that wouldn't give it a spirit, without that, would it even be able to perceive much of magic?  outside of any physical manifestations of course.

Dresdenverse magic has been presented as being beholden to the laws of physics.  If magic is an energy field, an AI might be able to figure out how to access it artificially.

Interesting thought about a Spirit of Intellect. It's basically what happens in Age of Ultron.

Ultron's a good example, but I'd say it'd likely be more like Vision.  There'd probably need to be a catalyst (magical version of the mind stone) to gain sentience, at least within the timeline of the series.  A SoI could be that catalyst, or a magical being that could create a SoI with a machine on the cusp of sentience.

Still, a long shot, and likely something we'd never see.

[peregrine]

It comes down to 2 questions "Why do mortal humans have magic?", and ...  The first question probably has an answer,

That answer is mostly yes.  Note that Butters, a Mortal, can energize a circle of his own volition.  Jim has also said that the main difference is that Wizards can perceive the forces they're manipulating, while Mortals lack those senses, so they'd be doing magic blind, deaf, and numb.  Plus the ability of Three Eye users to see magic.  And then the soulgaze which requires a Wizard to happen, but does go both ways.

[Quantus]

It comes down to 2 questions "Why do mortal humans have magic?", and "Can real sentient life forms be created via technology?"  The first question probably has an answer, the 2nd question is hotly debated in the real world and one I don't know if Jim would even bother to tackle unless Harry goes to the future.  The future of the Dresden Files appears to be the opposite of advancement and more about mass destruction of civilization...  So I don't think there will be advanced technology.

Im not sure how #1 factors in, since there are tons of magic-using entities that are not humans, bob being the ideal example. 

Regarding #2, In terms of the DV, how do you define Created?  Would creating a technological container for a Spirit count, or would you want a more ground-up genesis on the scale of like the Dragons creating the dragons?

[Quantus]

Dresdenverse magic has been presented as being beholden to the laws of physics.  If magic is an energy field, an AI might be able to figure out how to access it artificially.

Ultron's a good example, but I'd say it'd likely be more like Vision.  There'd probably need to be a catalyst (magical version of the mind stone) to gain sentience, at least within the timeline of the series.  A SoI could be that catalyst, or a magical being that could create a SoI with a machine on the cusp of sentience.

Still, a long shot, and likely something we'd never see.

After reading Day One, Im not actually sure about that.  It features a monster that is based on an 80's toy, and Harry said the cumulative emotions surrounding the toy line (thanks largely to the intensity of Children's emotions) might have been enough to either Create a new Spirit or Call one that existed and needed a connection to the Human World to stay there.   If that's enough without any direct catalyst or conscious Intent, the group striving to create an actual "Question what is Alive" AI could well do it, and if not the global fallout if they announced Success could likely pull it off after the fact (though that /would/ require conscious intent I suppose)

[WereElephant]

Follow up: What kind of Will (or lack thereof) would a magical AI have?

Non-mortal magical entities are typically described as not having Free Will. Bob, for example, needs to be compelled by a master in order to act toward an objective. Thus, a Spirit of Intellect based AI would seemingly not be able to do squat without a master/host. However, computers don't necessarily work that way. Turn on a roomba, and it will clean a floor of its own volition. That's all it will do, and it can't respond to changing circumstances well, but apart from being turned on, it doesn't require commands. Would a magical AI be similar? It wouldn't have Free Will in the sense that mortals do, but it would be able to act of its own Limited Will provided all actions taken were based on a programmed imperative.

Again, I realize this is extremely unlikely to come up, but I find the speculation in this thread interesting.

[Quantus]

Follow up: What kind of Will (or lack thereof) would a magical AI have?

Same as any other sentient, non-mortal creature.  It would not be able to act outside of its fundamental design and/or purpose without outside intervention, and would have a stable Name, but would still be as Sentient as the Fae.

[Kindler]

Ultron's a good example, but I'd say it'd likely be more like Vision.  There'd probably need to be a catalyst (magical version of the mind stone) to gain sentience, at least within the timeline of the series.  A SoI could be that catalyst, or a magical being that could create a SoI with a machine on the cusp of sentience.

I should've been more specific; I did mean Vision in Age of Ultron. Pretty much exactly how I see something like this going; a Spirit of Intellect is transmuted into something grander than itself. Sufficiently advanced magic becoming indistinguishable from technology.

As far as whether or not an AI could use magic, I'd mention Ivy (cautiously). I don't know if Ivy was born a wizard, if her mantle grants her access to magic, or if she simply knows so much that she is able to use magic without any innate sensitivity to it. If it's the third option, then I'd hazard a guess that a sufficiently knowledgeable AI could pull something off if it attained sentience, consciousness, and a measure of free will.

[Quantus]

I should've been more specific; I did mean Vision in Age of Ultron. Pretty much exactly how I see something like this going; a Spirit of Intellect is transmuted into something grander than itself. Sufficiently advanced magic becoming indistinguishable from technology.

As far as whether or not an AI could use magic, I'd mention Ivy (cautiously). I don't know if Ivy was born a wizard, if her mantle grants her access to magic, or if she simply knows so much that she is able to use magic without any innate sensitivity to it. If it's the third option, then I'd hazard a guess that a sufficiently knowledgeable AI could pull something off if it attained sentience, consciousness, and a measure of free will.

Regarding Ivy, as I understand things even if the Archive didnt innately grant Magic on it's own, Ivy was born to a actively magic-using lineage going back most of Human History, so I think it is all but inevitable that said Bloodline would have developed/mutated Magical capabilities through chronic exposure.