Mantles only connected to the Sacrificial stone?

[groinkick]

Alright I was just going over a theory in my mind and wanted to chat about it.  I personally don't like the idea of "everything is a Mantle",  and there are examples that not all forms of power are Mantles.  Dragon's are a good example.  When they die, they are gone.  Nobody takes up a Dragon Mantle.

So why aren't Dragon's Mantles?  They are celestial beings.  A wizard is very powerful but their "cup can get full".  So how would someone gain more power when their cup is full?  Construct a much bigger container that they can tap into.  That's where the sacrificial Stone Table comes in.  I'm thinking that every Mantle is connected directly to that Table.  Any form of power not connected to that Table is not a Mantle.  For example if a Dark Hallow was performed.  The person who gained the power would have the power of a dark god but it would not be a Mantle.  If they were destroyed, they would die just like a Dragon...  Would be gone, no transfer of power.

If this theory is true, then the real target of the Old Gods/Outsiders would be to corrupt the Stone Table.  If they could pull that off, game over.  Every single being connected to it would basically become a tool for the Old Gods.  It would be like a computer virus infecting the server that connected thousands of computers.  All the computers could be infected via the server....  The Stone Table would have protection from individual computers (Aurora Nemfected) but if the Table itself was attacked, then all are infected.  Perhaps this is what causes the BAT.  The Core becomes corrupted, and the only thing that can be done is to destroy it...

[Snark Knight]

I fully agree with 'not everything is a mantle', but I'm not sure it's quite as restrictive as to only include the Fae aligned with the seasonal courts who share the Table. The pagan gods seem to have something at least very mantle-like going on, and I'm fairly sure the rulers of the wyldfae who are adjacent to the Courts but not actual members have mantles too (although Erl and Kringle basically have one foot in the Courts and one out anyway).

[raidem]

I think you should rather say a subset of mantles extend from the Stone Table.  I wonder when we will find out it's origin.

[peregrine]

Even if Mab uses the Table to absorb energy, and possibly even got it from the  very beginning, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is linked to her all the time.  Corrupting the table doesn't necessarily mean it will corrupt her, Titania, or any other Mantles we know of.

Though, depending on how it works, killing an Outsider on the Table may affect things as the Outsider power goes into whichever Court.  But it's a poorly designed tool that doesn't take that into account and reduce or eliminate any sort of "flavor" of power.

Also, I think the idea that every Mantle is linked to the Table is not necessarily supported.  We need to know for sure what a Mantle proper is, but Warden doesn't seem like it's connected to the Stone Table.  Eldest has its own thing going on.  Maybe Gatekeeper, we don't know if that's a Mantle.  And so on.

[jonas]

I would not immediately disagree, however Woj that most Mantles have been around since the beginning complicates things a bit if you don't consider the source of said mantles, specifically those whose source is known, are directly broken down pieces of the Mothers greater power.
Their are a few ways to attempt to broach and reconcile the subject though, mostly dependent on some leveraging of facts vs theory....
First if you consider woj angels are too... and I forget the precise wording now but whole for Nemesis to mess with, with the idea Angels are Celestial stars and we are on the star 'Gaia' in a cabbalistic manor, giving us a direct shadow of our own reality and then point out MW and indeed the broken down portions in the Queen and Lady are brought inside reality in order to create a balance, which takes it away from our Dark Star/Planetoid.(astrologically and scientifically named Nemesis...)  Then consider what Nemesis CAN mess with has consistently been mantles that exist inside our Star and source directly from the alloy of balance between and you could say all the mantles we know of are broken down pieces of the identity of our own reality/star made manifest genus loci style. And certain angels we have seen are those who came from the stars to earth and formed a true avatar or otherwise overwrote the star via starborn effect, becoming it in truth. (Hence Uriel's dual existence and ability to transubstantiate, as his own self)

Or.. We could take the "mantle of power" literally and point out every being we know of that is a Mantle is also... while not necessarily not the original being, as Cat Sith is, But Not an original representation for said power, or holder of said positioning.(some divergence here from Eldest Mantles to every other Mantle, Eldest Mantles imo apply the 9 psyche's of the consciousness and disperse them, giving that mythical shadow/devil inside us all a barrier between it and the queens, which are just another barrier of course) So those things sacrificed or otherwise killed that are connected to reality become positions of power, where-in the spirit of said being does not pass with it's consciousness as it's somehow stopped from fusing into an afterlife existence.... Which may cause such disembodied beings as outsiders? things not tied to Mantle form can still try to effect reality, but it's less structured in it's attempted possession and it's inherent results... fyi reality champions choice, and Mantles don't take conscious choice away, they restructure it based on your own choices, while making the mantle replace your ID, But notice despite it all Molly is still able to choose as far as within the mantles authority? Looking for a new source of fighters was quite an elective choice... I theorize it has to do with the mantle changing as it subsumes your soul/identity into it.
Other stuff... what were we talking about again?

[groinkick]

I would not immediately disagree, however Woj that most Mantles have been around since the beginning complicates things a bit if you don't consider the source of said mantles, specifically those whose source is known, are directly broken down pieces of the Mothers greater power.

Well in my theory the Sidhe did not create the Stone Table.  Just as they haven't always been in control of the Outer Gates.  I think it's probably changed hands from many different players, and cultures.  So even if the Sidhe currently control it, those other people who are connected to it from previous control are still tied to it.  It's also possible other pantheons have their own type of storage device which would stop my theory about Outsiders taking all Mantles by getting to the single Stone Table.

Also, I think the idea that every Mantle is linked to the Table is not necessarily supported.  We need to know for sure what a Mantle proper is, but Warden doesn't seem like it's connected to the Stone Table.  Eldest has its own thing going on.  Maybe Gatekeeper, we don't know if that's a Mantle.  And so on.

Well if Dresden's hypothesis is correct it did appear that Alfred was vulnerable to Sidhe magic, and that he's a nature type being.  So the Island may very well be influenced or connected in some way by the Sidhe.  Might not be remembering correctly but didn't Harry think the material containing the creatures down below was similar to the material at the Outer Gates?

[groinkick]

I know I started this thread but another possible huge dent in my theory is this...  If power was created via worship, and and this power is obtained by a person, then that Mantle might not be able to be destroyed because the Belief was still there...  So as long as that Belief is there, the energy tied to it will exist in one way or another.  What this means to me is that Celestial Being's like Dragons (probably TWG, Angels ect) existed before worship, while "Mantles" came into being via worship and cannot be destroyed unless the source of it's power (belief, worship, love, fans) is destroyed. 

So that could mean the Stone Table was created to combine all these Mantles of worship into one big container.  One Mantle might not have global influence but a thousand combined into one container does, the Sidhe sacrificing Mantle holders.  In a way the Stone Table would be similar to a Dark Hallow in which it gathers all kinds of power.

So Odin for example would not be part of the Stone Table unless the original was sacrificed on it, and that power given to someone else.

[Kindler]

So Odin for example would not be part of the Stone Table unless the original was sacrificed on it, and that power given to someone else.

In the Poetic Edda, Odin hanged himself from Yggdrasil. So he very well might have sacrificed himself, then inherited his own power.

Anyway, on topic, I'm also one of those who doesn't think everything is a Mantle. I think that there are separate meanings of the word: 1.) a mantle of power, as the Winter Knight's Mantle, the Queens, et cetera, and 2.) a mantle of responsibility, like being the Warden. Being the Warden gives Harry some limited power bonuses, but only when he's in his clubhouse, and really only as an extension of holding the keys to the prison—that's the responsibility. It's more like a Fae deal than a Mantle.

I'm not sure about Mantles of Power being tied to the Stone Table or other receptacle specifically, but I don't think there's much to dispute it, so it works for me for now.