The Well of Demonreach and the White Council?

[soundsofsilence]

Long time lurker, very rare poster, first time new topic starter. You know how it goes.

I apologize if this topic has been discussed elsewhere, and I'd gladly accept re-directions to another thread, but I was just curious about the Well, the Warden, and how much, if at all, that whole shindig is affiliated with the WC? Are they *in charge* of it? Is the Warden a White Council role? I haven't read the books in a while (almost out of school, so I'm up for a re-read in a few weeks) but I recall that Ebenezer, Listens-to Wind, and the Gatekeeper seemed to appreciate Demonreach for what it is, Ancient Mai seemed clueless, Luccio might know something, and I don't think we have had any indication on Langtry's knowledge about the island. Ebenezer even was hinted at having a somewhat more intimate knowledge of the history of Warden succession. We also know that OM created both Demonreach and the White Council, so... are they officially affiliated? Or unrelated projects of Merlin? How much do we know about that?

[RobReece]

I think that it similar to the position of Gatekeeper.  They are titles (mantles?) to be held, but the majority of even the WC don't really know their significance.  Wether or not they can be held by a non-wizard I don't think has been discussed.

[Darkest-Before-Dawn]

It seems like the position of Warden of Demonreach might predate the WC as we know it too. Considering when Harry mentions "the wardens" and Demonreach tells him "First there was one, now there are many". That seems to imply the wardens in the WC were named for The Warden.

[Lost Merlin]

It seems like the position of Warden of Demonreach might predate the WC as we know it too. Considering when Harry mentions "the wardens" and Demonreach tells him "First there was one, now there are many". That seems to imply the wardens in the WC were named for The Warden.

I look at it as this.  That maybe the original purpose for the WC and DR was to work together as a supernatural police to protect 'Vanillas'.  Over time and with fewer and fewer 'major' threats, the post of The Warden became the offices of wardens as it is now. 

[jonas]

The connection is the warlocks are invaded by the sleepers, it's why they actually believe they are a 'god'. they believe it enough it would be low level real even without the power to back it up. But as we know Warlocks eventually are replaced by something, so it's actually this something that 'believes' in its' godhood, probably rightly so when not stuck in a human Larva. It' the things in the well, it's why the wardens hunt and kill warlocks.

[WereElephant]

The connection is the warlocks are invaded by the sleepers, it's why they actually believe they are a 'god'. they believe it enough it would be low level real even without the power to back it up. But as we know Warlocks eventually are replaced by something, so it's actually this something that 'believes' in its' godhood, probably rightly so when not stuck in a human Larva. It' the things in the well, it's why the wardens hunt and kill warlocks.

This...could explain a lot.

[Snark Knight]

but I recall that Ebenezer, Listens-to Wind, and the Gatekeeper seemed to appreciate Demonreach for what it is, Ancient Mai seemed clueless, Luccio might know something, and I don't think we have had any indication on Langtry's knowledge about the island.

Ebenezar made sure Harry would notice his journal entry that Langtry wanted Harry put under surveillance as soon as the others reported that he'd claimed the island as a sanctum. Even if he doesn't know the whole deal, he knows significantly more than Harry did at the time.

[soundsofsilence]

Oh, yeah, thanks Snark Night, I'd forgotten that part. So it's likely that Langtry is in the know about the island. Putting Harry under surveillance rather than something more drastic would seem to indicate that the Council doesn't have any meaningful control over or affiliation with Demonreach. Or maybe not. The council obviously has a vested interest in the Well, and the history of the White Council and the Well seem connected. I was just wondering if anyone had any WoJs or WAGs about the subject.

[LordDresden2]

Oh, yeah, thanks Snark Night, I'd forgotten that part. So it's likely that Langtry is in the know about the island. Putting Harry under surveillance rather than something more drastic would seem to indicate that the Council doesn't have any meaningful control over or affiliation with Demonreach. Or maybe not. The council obviously has a vested interest in the Well, and the history of the White Council and the Well seem connected. I was just wondering if anyone had any WoJs or WAGs about the subject.

Keep in mind that 'THE Warden' is a paid position of the White Council.  Rashid tells Harry he'll expedite the paperwork, since Harry has the job he might as well get the salary.  That tells me that the Council and the Island are closely associated, though probably only at top levels.

According to Bob, Merlin himself created the prison and its AI spirit.  There's another link.

Probably the Council can't make Alfred choose a different Warden, though.  Usually, too, I would think that the Council would choose the new Warden, or at least a list of possibles for Alfred to choose from.  In the normal course of events, I can't imagine a Wizard as young, inexperienced, and politically awkward and troublesome as Harry Dresden ever even being considered for the role.  Probably, the Senior Council usually chooses the short list of candidates.

As for who on the Council knows...I'd say most of the Senior Council knows at least something about it.  Certainly Eb, Injun Joe, and Rashid all seemed to know the score about it, and probably Langtry.  Ancient Mai didn't indicate that she thought it odd that Harry dropped his challenge to meet on that particular island, but that doesn't prove she doesn't know, it might just mean she has a good poker face.

When they were there, Stacy didn't show any sign of thinking anything about it.  The Captain of the Wardens might reasonably be expected to know something...but then again, just because she didn't say anything doesn't mean she didn't know anything.

As Rashid told Harry, it's usually best the majority of the Council not know too much about their work.  There might be a lot of older Council members who know that there is THE Warden, but not exactly what he does or why.  It's probably the Council equivalent of a state secret.

[Yuillegan]

Keep in mind that 'THE Warden' is a paid position of the White Council.  Rashid tells Harry he'll expedite the paperwork, since Harry has the job he might as well get the salary.  That tells me that the Council and the Island are closely associated, though probably only at top levels.

As Rashid told Harry, it's usually best the majority of the Council not know too much about their work.  There might be a lot of older Council members who know that there is THE Warden, but not exactly what he does or why.  It's probably the Council equivalent of a state secret.

Sorry to be pedantic, but what was actually said was this.

At that, he paused. He looked back at me and gave me a quiet smile. “I know precisely how it feels to be where you are.” He gestured back toward the battleground. “Precisely.” He seemed to think about it for a moment, and then nodded. “I will do what I can. If we both survive the next several hours, I will settle matters between you and the Council, which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to—and that isn’t much. I will verify your return and that you are indeed yourself, and will see to it that your back pay as one of the Wardens is forwarded to you. There’s some paperwork to fill out to get the Council’s office to reestablish your official identity with the government, but I’ll see to it that it happens. I think I remember all the necessary forms.”I stared at him for a second and said, “You’ll . . . you’ll help me with White Council paperwork.”

The paid position is his regular warden role, not his role as THE WARDEN OF DEMONREACH. The council (only a few members perhaps at that) only knows that the office of THE WARDEN exists, but they do not control it. It is outside their purview and jurisdiction. It is implied in other material to have inspired the force that exists with in the council.

[Kindler]

Merlin is said to have formed the White Council from the Ashes of the Roman Empire. The Dark Ages (which isn't a term historians use anymore) were not a particularly happy time. For all its faults, Rome provided serious stability to the region. Without its influence, there was an awful lot of chaos. In short, it was a perfect period for supernatural predators, old gods, rogue deities, and whatever else is locked up in Demonreach to prey on humanity.

It was a chance, I think, for the things that used to run the planet—whose role was usurped by humanity, after civilizations spread their influence, such as the Romans—to take their old place in the hierarchy back. I think that they used the disorder (maybe even causing a bit of their own) to topple humanity for good. Merlin, the old badass bookworm, decided that, if he couldn't kill these things, he'd imprison them. So he built Demonreach (not the island itself, I don't think, but partnering with the genuis loci that was there already and giving it a big boost), installed a Warden he could trust (if not himself), and formed the White Council, whose original job was to band together as wizards, fight these things, and imprison them.

In short, I think that Demonreach was known to the White Council, because Merlin needed help filling it.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

[Lost Merlin]

This is my view of the previous relationship between the two.  As the threats became smaller DR was moved further up the need to know basis and now it maybe only just the SC who knows about it.  Maybe not all the specifics as you have laid out Kindler, but same basic premise. 

[Fcrate]

Probably the Council can't make Alfred choose a different Warden, though.  Usually, too, I would think that the Council would choose the new Warden, or at least a list of possibles for Alfred to choose from.  In the normal course of events, I can't imagine a Wizard as young, inexperienced, and politically awkward and troublesome as Harry Dresden ever even being considered for the role.  Probably, the Senior Council usually chooses the short list of candidates.

I'd say its more about raw magical muscle, willpower and dedication, as the warden candidate has to challenge the genus loci. In which case the decision will be demonreach's and no other.