Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before. - WOJ

[raidem]

I don't think DF God qualifies as TWG anymore or does he.  I'm thinking we should just consider df God as separate from much expectation we have about what God should be like.  The differences between df God and God is mounting.

[Griffyn612]

The fact that I can drive a car down the road with several hundred pounds of stuff at 60 miles per hour does not mean that I can carry several hundred pounds of stuff down the road at 60 miles per hour.  Having the ability to let someone else do a thing does not mean you yourself have the ability to do that thing.

Doesn't it, though?  If we said power only lies with the person that does something, then the PotUS is no more powerful than anyone else.  He/She would be weaker than many.  The fact that they can destroy the world doesn't count, because the themselves aren't doing it.

Besides which, having your universe destroyed his way is probably a mercy kill compared to actually experiencing an Outsider invasion first-hand.

Definitely.  I'm sure they could do a Rapture-level event across the globe in a non-linear second, coordinating with other pantheons if needed. 

[raidem]

I wonder if the series is kinda what it looks like right before an archangel blows up a universe. I mean we are seeing many archangels getting personally involved.  I think they believe there are pivotal moments upcoming and this is there play to limit the need to destroy this universe.

It makes me wonder if Uriels gambit in skin game with turning over his grace to Michael in an attempt to save  a soul plus extra may have been part of this plan to save the universe.  Uriel put himself on the line with extending his grace to Michael.

[Avernite]

I wonder if the series is kinda what it looks like right before an archangel blows up a universe. I mean we are seeing many archangels getting personally involved.  I think they believe there are pivotal moments upcoming and this is there play to limit the need to destroy this universe.

It makes me wonder if Uriels gambit in skin game with turning over his grace to Michael in an attempt to save  a soul plus extra may have been part of this plan to save the universe.  Uriel put himself on the line with extending his grace to Michael.

I'm sure he did use his Intellectus to limit the risk - I imagine he knew to ask the questions "Will Michael C make me Fall?" and "Will this help?".
Which is a bit weird to consider - what role did Uriel's Intellectus play?

But indeed, I think the BAT will be one of those (apocalyptic) situations deciding if the world gets recycled or keeps on spinning.

[groinkick]

Doesn't it, though?  If we said power only lies with the person that does something, then the PotUS is no more powerful than anyone else.  He/She would be weaker than many.  The fact that they can destroy the world doesn't count, because the themselves aren't doing it.

Which has more power.  The president ordering a nuclear strike, or someone who can manipulate the laws of physics with their mind to cause a nuclear explosion?  The one who can manipulate the laws of physics with their mind can do much much more vs someone using a nuke.

They aren't the same.  The Mothers "allowing" the Outsiders to come in vs TWG creating the rules in which it is possible for them to come in is much different.  The power to destroy a universe with your own power vs destroying the universe by allowing creatures capable of destroying it in are completely different levels of power.

 It means one level of power is much more limited, and contained vs one that can do much more.  One follows the rules, and one creates them.

[Griffyn612]

Which has more power.  The president ordering a nuclear strike, or someone who can manipulate the laws of physics with their mind to cause a nuclear explosion?  The one who can manipulate the laws of physics with their mind can do much much more vs someone using a nuke.

They aren't the same.  The Mothers "allowing" the Outsiders to come in vs TWG creating the rules in which it is possible for them to come in is much different.  The power to destroy a universe with your own power vs destroying the universe by allowing creatures capable of destroying it in are completely different levels of power.

 It means one level of power is much more limited, and contained vs one that can do much more.  One follows the rules, and one creates them.

I'd say there's an argument that someone with thousands of nukes that could be simultaneously fired is more dangerous than someone that can magically induce one, and who likely couldn't do that numerous times in quick succession.

But I get what you're saying.  It's a question of raw ability versus leverage.  Arches have the raw ability to destroy universes.  The Mothers don't.  But they do have the leverage to get it done.  Both are power of one sort or another.  They're not the same, but the result is.

All this is assuming that one or the other is free enough to do their part in the scenario.

[groinkick]

I'd say there's an argument that someone with thousands of nukes that could be simultaneously fired is more dangerous than someone that can magically induce one, and who likely couldn't do that numerous times in quick succession.

But I get what you're saying.  It's a question of raw ability versus leverage.  Arches have the raw ability to destroy universes.  The Mothers don't.  But they do have the leverage to get it done.  Both are power of one sort or another.  They're not the same, but the result is.

All this is assuming that one or the other is free enough to do their part in the scenario.

Yeah, it's a tight rope Jim has to be careful with.  Kinda like "Well if Mother Winter could do all this what point is there for Harry Dresden to save the day?"

[Snark Knight]

But I get what you're saying.  It's a question of raw ability versus leverage.  Arches have the raw ability to destroy universes.  The Mothers don't.  But they do have the leverage to get it done.  Both are power of one sort or another.  They're not the same, but the result is.

I think when Lea said in SK that the Queens and Mothers had power to rival the archangels, she simply doesn't have much of an idea how powerful archangels actually are. Which is an understandable mistake to make since how much of their power they can actually use is very limited in normal circumstances, and she simply hasn't been privy to any of the "aw shucks, time to wrap up this universe" circumstances.

Plus, she had the athame at that point. She could have just been lying, although I don't even see a reason doing so there would benefit Nemesis.

[LordDresden2]

They're equal in their way.  If an assassin wants to kill someone, they kill them.  If a rich person wants to kill someone, they get the assassin to do it.  The victim is dead either way.

Likewise, if the Mothers wanted to destroy the universe, they could (theoretically) let the Outsiders in.  Then either the Outsiders or Management would destroy the universe.  Even if the Mothers aren't pulling the trigger, the universe is dead either way.

By themselves, I doubt the Mothers could let the Outsiders in.  I suspect that that would require mortal free will on some level.

In some ways, the Mothers are a little like the robots in Isaac Asimov's stories, I think.  The Laws of the Sidhe aren't something they choose to obey, it's something they MUST obey, like the the Three Laws of Robotics for robots in Asimov's stories.

Which isn't to say, like some of Asimov's robots, that they can't find sneaky ways around some of the requirements, ditto Mab and Titania.

[groinkick]

Michael played with the Grace..  oops!

[Yuillegan]

Also, what's with the sudden screenshotting of WoJ?  Can we not provide links to the original source?  Because I can fake a screenshot of WoJ that says whatever I want with no problem whatsoever.

Just to be clear, the quote is legit. It comes from a private fan facebook group that a link would not allow you to see posts. It also has Jim Butcher's personal FB account included in the group. He occasionally joins the conversation, but AFAIK he self-manages his own account. He is only a mildly famous niche author after all, and is actually quite down to earth. There are many people who are fans AND friends with the guy himself.

Also, I suppose I or someone else could photoshop a quote. But to what end? The point is to discuss interesting parts of the Dresdenverse and WOJ helps build that. I could have just kept it to myself. I don't need to legitimise it to myself, the quote is for all of YOU.

Finally, I would like to point out Jim's style of prose. It is quite distinct, and if you follow his various works and quotes you will notice he has little idiosyncrasies and idioms that appear in the way he writes, especially off the cuff. I won't get into all of them (do your own homework) but as an example, he loves chucking in "\" around words requiring emphasis. That is quite an old school thing to do, and you see it more with older types. Just a little FYI.

Not that your question annoys me, I am glad peregrine that you choose to critically evaluate information. We all know the internet could use more of that!

[WereElephant]

Michael played with the Grace..  oops!

Previously, I wondered if we might eventually see Harry wind up getting a Grace loan from the Watchman. This has now convinced me that will never happen, considering just how much a menace to real estate non-Grace powered Harry is.

"The Universe was on fire, and it wasn't my fault. Okay, maybe a little."

[LordDresden2]

Previously, I wondered if we might eventually see Harry wind up getting a Grace loan from the Watchman. This has now convinced me that will never happen, considering just how much a menace to real estate non-Grace powered Harry is.

"The Universe was on fire, and it wasn't my fault. Okay, maybe a little."

Also, from a meta POV, it would make Harry too powerful, I think.  The storyline hinges on the fact that Harry is not the most powerful being in his personal world.

[huangjimmy108]

Yes it fits in well with his job description - and you are right about the utilitarian approach. Even though they believe EVERY SINGLE SOUL/EVERY SINGLE CHOICE IS IMPORTANT, some realities have to be pruned.
 
But I wonder how Dresden would fell about uncountable lives being extinguished. He doesn't see eye to eye with Heaven on a lot of things.
I find myself wondering what the other Archangels, and other angels do as well.

If Lucifer spends the majority of his time lying and compromising choice and Free Will - which all angels have to SOME degree - but not the same as mortals, what does Michael do?

Because it seems like Uriel does most of the counter moves. And Raphael, from a reader perspective is the most mysterious. The Healer doesn't seem to be very active at all. Gabriel used to be very in contact with humanity, what happened? What do all the other angels, apart from Cherubs and Angels of Deaths do? Guards, messengers, warriors are the norm. And Fallen must have a bit to do as well.

Have the other Archangels destroyed realities? This fits in with the line from Uriel "I was fighting wars before your planet existed" (to paraphrase). I love getting into the broad cosmology of things.

And tbh I never really agreed with The Mothers being at the same level as Archangels. I think that has been retconned. However, perhaps not because as Jim says - the beings do NOT change, only our understanding of who and what they are. And maybe the Archangels and the Mothers represent something beyond our myths, something Jim has created for the purposes of his narrative.

Dresden won't mind countless lives being destroyed, as long as he did not happened in front of him and as long as he don't have the power to do anything about it. If Harry don't have such a mindset, he'll go insane. There is enough injustice just in Harry's own planet, heck just in Harry's own town of Chicago, let alone in the entire universe and all the multiverse. Maybe, just maybe, Book 1 Harry might childishly complain about such an abstract concept, but book 15 Harry knows better.

As for Uriel and Heaven, I do not think the concept of "free will" is a law applicable to all worlds in all the multiverse. I think there is a WoJ somewhere that mentioned about a reality where powers like Jedi mind trick is applicable?

There you have it. If such reality does exist, it shows that in some realities "free will" is not so strictly enforce as in the reality that is the Dresdenverse. In such realities, Archangels like Uriel might be allowed to take more hardline measures, because in such realities, Uriel is not bound by the laws of "free will".

It can be said that the current dresdenverse is a reality where the forces of light has secured propperly, and therefore the free will of mortals in this particular reality is better protected. Other universes however, may not be under the same circumstances.

Of course, if you are someone who wish to defy the heaven and desire to attain supreme cosmic powers, someone like Nicodemous for example,  living in a reality like the dresdenverse is frustrating. You can't cultivate into an immortal like in Xianxia novels, not in this reality. Heck, even taking up a mantle of power is so difficult and full of restrictions and limitations. In short, the path to greater power is cut off in the dresdenverse. Like Michael pronounced in book 15: "There is a judge out there.:, which means the dresdenverse is already under someone's rule. The universe already has a Master, or at least a strong establish order.

Which explains why Uriel makes most of Heaven's moves in this reality. Because this is sort of "National defense" and Uriel is kind of the FBI, NSA and CIA combine. In the dresdenverse, Uriel is countering domestic crimes and terrorism. In other realities, where Heaven is trying to take control, maybe Michael is mostly in charge. because Michael is the general of the Army. while in realities where Heaven is trying to restore order after conquest, , maybe Raphael will be the main Archangel in charge.

[Mira]

   In raw power, yeah, Mr Sunshine could wipe out the universe or a universe, but only on orders from the Boss..   It isn't something he can chose to do on his own...