What's Up With Marcone?

[Quantus]

We don't know that Tony was looking for the Word of Kemmler. We just know it was part of an estate of someone reasonably wealthy.

It could've been the estate of someone very much on the supernatural side. Or it could've been the estate of someone's wealthy-but-loony aunt who had a taste for the occult.

Excellent point.  Frankly if he'd known what he had I suspect he would have taken more dramatic steps, or ideally been wise enough to walk away with just the art.  We do know Bony Tony was clued in enough to take steps against Wizards (ie. concealing the Word via technology) but not how much he know prior to that score, or how much specifics he knew about the Word itself.  It would have likely been stored in some fashion that screamed Valuable, either a display or a hiding place. 

[peregrine]

If he knew about how dangerous it was, he'd have probably told Marcone, since Marcone was the one who gave him advice on how to hide it from wizards.  At which point Marcone would probably use it to get some sort of concessions/payment from the White Council or just burn it himself.  Because something like that is basically a nuclear weapon that only someone else can use.  It benefits Marcone not to keep it around if he can't use it.

[Rasins]

I could totally see Marcone keeping it, and using it later, if needs be, to elevate himself in the supernatural world.

[Quantus]

I could totally see Marcone keeping it, and using it later, if needs be, to elevate himself in the supernatural world.

Bargaining tool if nothing else, I just dont see him actually burning it.  Hell, Id only give it 50/50 that the White Council itself would completely destroy such knowledge.

[Rasins]

I'm still of the opinion that Marcone will look for some way to extend his life.  A darkhallow would do it.

[WereElephant]

I'm still of the opinion that Marcone will look for some way to extend his life.  A darkhallow would do it.

Possibly, but only a surgical one. He wouldn't do it if it meant kids dying.

[peregrine]

I'm still of the opinion that Marcone will look for some way to extend his life.  A darkhallow would do it.

A Darkhallow worth a damn would be wholesale slaughter on a massive scale.  And while I doubt his code is as noble as some folks here like to think, he still does have a code, that I don't think includes mass murder.  Plus, it's a safe bet that you have to be a wizard to perform it, which Marcone is not.  Plus Plus the freedom of Choice Marcone would most likely have to give up to get power on that scale.

[WereElephant]

A Darkhallow worth a damn would be wholesale slaughter on a massive scale.  And while I doubt his code is as noble as some folks here like to think, he still does have a code, that I don't think includes mass murder.  Plus, it's a safe bet that you have to be a wizard to perform it, which Marcone is not.  Plus Plus the freedom of Choice Marcone would most likely have to give up to get power on that scale.

Agreed, he probably would not do it. Massive slaughter isn't generally profitable.

Where do you get that he would lose freedom of Choice? Ascension to immortality is akin to taking on a Mantle, but we haven't been given any info on what kind of obligations the Darkhallow would bestow. Now, sure, Immortals are under a lot more scrutiny by the powers that be, but that isn't removal of choice. It's the practical restraint of action based on presented consequences.

[peregrine]

Where do you get that he would lose freedom of Choice? Ascension to immortality is akin to taking on a Mantle, but we haven't been given any info on what kind of obligations the Darkhallow would bestow. Now, sure, Immortals are under a lot more scrutiny by the powers that be, but that isn't removal of choice. It's the practical restraint of action based on presented consequences.

I don't know that he would for sure, but I think he probably would.  Combining the WoJ about Power and Purpose generally being linked, plus Mab's restrictions, and the fact that she ascended through something much like a Darkhallow, makes me think that it would come with some kind of restrictions.  But maybe not, we didn't see for sure what would have happened had Cowl succeeded, obviously.

Specifically, while Immortals are under more scrutiny, there are also limitations beyond just cause and effect.  There are certain things that Mab can not do, regardless of who saw it or other consequences.  Things like lying flat out, or being purely charitable or otherwise going against her Nature.

[Quantus]

Agreed, he probably would not do it. Massive slaughter isn't generally profitable.

True, but that's only an issue if it's /human/ slaughter.  I maintain that Chitzen Itza would make the perfect place for a Darkhallow but would be sucking dense Life of an entire Jungle ecosystem rather than just that of the human (and presumably pet & vermin) populations of an Urban jungle.  It would be a Quality over Quantity thing on the Life Sucking side (assuming Zombie necro rules apply), and on the Spirit side they have all those sacrificial Dead from millennia of Bloodsport and vampiric rule; waaaay better than just some generic native American Hunter spirits. 

Where do you get that he would lose freedom of Choice? Ascension to immortality is akin to taking on a Mantle, but we haven't been given any info on what kind of obligations the Darkhallow would bestow. Now, sure, Immortals are under a lot more scrutiny by the powers that be, but that isn't removal of choice. It's the practical restraint of action based on presented consequences.

The strong implication from a bunch of WOJ's is that Free Will (in the cosmic superpower sense) is exclusive to Mortals, and thus to become truly Immortal (in the Mantle Sense) is to loose that soul.  We know that is guaranteed (though not instantaneous) for Molly, for example. 

The best theory/framework Ive come up with is that Mantles are solidified True Names (where Names are themselves an aspect of The Self along side the Body, Spirit, Soul, etc) that have gained enough energy and/or momentum to outlast their original composite form, not unlike how a Spirit-ghost can be described as /Memories/ that have gained enough energy to exist beyond their original Self.  This Solidified power is incompatible with whatever fluid Soulness it is that lets Mortals Change their Names and Themselves and The Universe Itself via Choice.  FWIW, it was also theorized that part of the Normal Soul function of a person relies on that thing Bob talks about where Soul chunks get passed to loved ones through Hugs and whatnot; the idea is that normal mortals trade and regenerate Soul regularly, but becoming a Mantled Immortal would freeze the human Host's ability to regenerate their own Soul.  So they'd be left with a Finite supply rather than the renewable resource that Bob described to harry.  So if she wanted to keep her soul Longer, she needs to maintain as many Real human relationships (family, friends, etc) as possible so that she can get a regular influx of Soul through those interactions.  Thus, to loose her connection to her Mortal Life would be to LITERALLY loose her soul. 

[peregrine]

I don't know that Mantles are necessarily Names as well.  Keep in mind that Hercules the mantle has now become The Incredible Hulk the mantle, and while they both have the same aspect of overwhelming strength, there's a major difference between the two.

[Quantus]

I don't know that Mantles are necessarily Names as well.  Keep in mind that Hercules the mantle has now become The Incredible Hulk the mantle, and while they both have the same aspect of overwhelming strength, there's a major difference between the two.

True but I have two counterpoints to that: 1) that Overwhelming Strength is the only thing that links them, so for one to have naturally(?) evolve to the other would indicate that those other differences are immaterial, and 2) Hercules used to be Heracleese who used to be Hercle (in the older Etruscan), so even the big Ol' Important Names can Change (in terms of usage and popular phonetics) while retaining their Core Identity, which is what Im theorizing that the True Name actually is, as an offshoot of the more elaborate theory on the Egyptian Five-part Self definition. 

[jonas]

Plus besides green the comparison is pretty spot on, berserker warrior known for sometimes uncontrollable bloodlust. Your thinking popular view, but if popular view were most important Mab would have changed into Elsa by now, or the fairie would at least have drifted from the originals....

besides, this is all a huge misunderstanding. immaterial, but iirc Jim said, "Hulk" no definitive article by placing 'the' before it.... combine this with what we know about Greek Gods trying to stay relevant by Wrestling and we simply have a case of mistaken Hulkity. Baldor is probably the Macho Man too.

[Quantus]

Plus besides green the comparison is pretty spot on, berserker warrior known for sometimes uncontrollable bloodlust. Your thinking popular view, but if popular view were most important Mab would have changed into Elsa by now, or the fairie would at least have drifted from the originals....

I figure it has to do with some sort of Momentum and the actual span of Living Human Memory (which should include all the long-lived magic users, even Binder).  Hercules likely landed on the Hulk more because it was un-anchored at the time, rather than popular opinion being strong enough to change Current Mantle-holders.  Otherwise Santa would look more like his current Coca-Cola inspired pop image rather than the Sword-wielding viking hunter we met. 

besides, this is all a huge misunderstanding. immaterial, but iirc Jim said, "Hulk" no definitive article by placing 'the' before it.... combine this with what we know about Greek Gods trying to stay relevant by Wrestling and we simply have a case of mistaken Hulkity. Baldor is probably the Macho Man too.

[WereElephant]

True, but that's only an issue if it's /human/ slaughter.  I maintain that Chitzen Itza would make the perfect place for a Darkhallow but would be sucking dense Life of an entire Jungle ecosystem rather than just that of the human (and presumably pet & vermin) populations of an Urban jungle.  It would be a Quality over Quantity thing on the Life Sucking side (assuming Zombie necro rules apply), and on the Spirit side they have all those sacrificial Dead from millennia of Bloodsport and vampiric rule; waaaay better than just some generic native American Hunter spirits.  The strong implication from a bunch of WOJ's is that Free Will (in the cosmic superpower sense) is exclusive to Mortals, and thus to become truly Immortal (in the Mantle Sense) is to loose that soul.  We know that is guaranteed (though not instantaneous) for Molly, for example. 

The best theory/framework Ive come up with is that Mantles are solidified True Names (where Names are themselves an aspect of The Self along side the Body, Spirit, Soul, etc) that have gained enough energy and/or momentum to outlast their original composite form, not unlike how a Spirit-ghost can be described as /Memories/ that have gained enough energy to exist beyond their original Self.  This Solidified power is incompatible with whatever fluid Soulness it is that lets Mortals Change their Names and Themselves and The Universe Itself via Choice.  FWIW, it was also theorized that part of the Normal Soul function of a person relies on that thing Bob talks about where Soul chunks get passed to loved ones through Hugs and whatnot; the idea is that normal mortals trade and regenerate Soul regularly, but becoming a Mantled Immortal would freeze the human Host's ability to regenerate their own Soul.  So they'd be left with a Finite supply rather than the renewable resource that Bob described to harry.  So if she wanted to keep her soul Longer, she needs to maintain as many Real human relationships (family, friends, etc) as possible so that she can get a regular influx of Soul through those interactions.  Thus, to loose her connection to her Mortal Life would be to LITERALLY loose her soul.

Attempted metaphorical paraphrase: so Generic Immortality changes the state of your essence from liquid to solid. This prevents you from changing yourself. Your character will not deepen, your virtues and vices will remain at a constant level, and your perspective becomes fixed. It doesn't mean you cannot choose to do X action over Y action, but that your basis for the final decision is always filtered through the same thought processes and emotional reactions. In exchange for these limitations, you become unable to die and gain a magical/cosmic power boost.

Mantled Immortality retains the stipulations above, but adds to them. For instance, Molly, in becoming the Winter Lady, is not only having her personality frozen (haha), it is being added to whilst being frozen. The tendencies of Winter (predation, coldness, pragmatism, ruthlessness) are slowly being added to who she is with every choice she makes to embrace those aspects. Once added, they are immutable. She will eventually become a completely solid entity of Winter, no longer capable changing and choosing as a Mortal would. In addition to these personality changes, because it's the Winter Mantle, the inability to deliberately lie has been ingrained into her, as has an essential vulnerability to cold iron. On the positive front, she gains a greater power boost than Generic Immortals would because of the additional restrictions of Winter and Fae.

Am I understanding correctly?