Nick and the Cup (New Theory?)

[Rasins]

I'm re-listening to SG and got to thinking.

Coming from the perspective that Nick want's to "save the world", and he thinks that there is soon going to be a changing of the guard at the Outer Gates, I'm wondering if he didn't want the cup, and the other artifacts to aid him in taking over that charge.

Think of it this way...

According to legend, the cup grants immortality to anyone who drank from it.  If all of his troops at the gates drank from it, they'd never die.  That would be an awesome advantage over the outsiders who seem to just keep coming and coming.

Also, had he gotten his hands on the Spear of Longinus (the "knife" Harry got), it supposedly grants it's bearer victory all the time.

I don't know what the other artifacts do, but with just those two, someone could defend the Outer Gates forever and never lose.

This is assuming that Nick would be wanting to defend the gates, and not lead the hoard of Outsiders in to our reality, using the same artifacts for them instead of us.

[raidem]

I don't think he wants to guard the Gates.  The role the Denarians serve is to be on Earth bending free willed mortals to their wills.  That is their specialty and the expression of their power.  So, whatever Nic's goal is it is about Earth, not the Gates.  I do believe he is intending the weapons to use against the Outsiders, unless even Anduriel or Nic himself is infected and he is being used by Nemesis himself.

I think his main purpose in getting into Hades vault was to get the Knife.  He must have believed Harry had the remaining objects of power on him as he didn't think Anna had them on her.  It is likely he didn't know how many objects there were.  He did know though that Harry had a 'knife' up his sleeve.

The last time I recall him have a Cup like object resembling the Holy Grail was in Death Masks when Nic and Deidre had Harry imprisoned and Nic decided to bleed him to death.  He didn't have the necessary cup so he had to delay but was interrupted by Shiro before he got it.

[Rasins]

Raidem,

The entire Stated point of Nick wanting into Hades vault was to get the Grail.  That's what he told the team, and that is what Harry gave him.  Harry actually grabbed the cup and tossed it to him while still in Hades vault.

Now, everyone knows that the cup (Grail) wasn't Nick's only objective, but that's what he stated, and that's what he got.

I'm just wondering how, getting that item (and the others if he could) would play into his "Saving the world".

[WereElephant]

I'm just wondering how, getting that item (and the others if he could) would play into his "Saving the world".

From whom do we think he believes he is saving the world? The Outsiders and the Old Ones? Or the White God and Heaven? He is obviously opposed to the latter, but his opinion on the former is less clear.

Based on his reaction to Dresden's revelation that Hellfire was used at Arctis Tor, I think it's safe to assume that he is neither Nemfected nor sympathetic to the Outsiders. However, none of his actions seem to be designed to oppose Nemesis. Stealing the Shroud to cause a pandemic? Forcing the Archive to accept a Coin? Stealing artifacts pertinent to the Crucifixion from Hades? The power of the artifacts could be wielded against the Outsiders, but wanton slaughter by plague doesn't hurt them. Giving a coin to the Archive would actually make Ivy's knowledge of the Old Ones less secure, not more.

I want to say that he's planning on using the Outsiders in an attack on Creation, but I'm inferring he has a level of distaste for them, based on the Small Favor reaction mentioned earlier, that would prevent him from associating with them. Perhaps instead of using them directly, he's counting on them doing what they would anyway, and planning his hit around it.

[Kindler]

I think it's safe to say that Nic is opposed to the Outsiders—he's evil, but he's still on the Reality Itself Home Team.

However, I do not think that Nic could take over The Gates... at least, not yet.

There simply aren't enough Nickelheads; Winter needs hundreds of thousands of Sidhe (plus various others) to protect reality. Nic would need an army.

Now, if Nic were to command the Armies of Hell? That's a different story.

See, Mother Summer said "Power has purpose," and if that's true, then it's also true that (some) Purpose has Power, and Nic has been after all the power he can get for millennia. I'd find it possible, even probable, that Nic intends to usurp Lucifer's control by manipulating events with the Holy Grail. How he accomplishes that, I dunno—maybe that's why he wanted the Lance of Longinus, to kill Satan—and then end Mab (and Winter's) thousand-year reign over the Gates by rallying Hell around him.

I'd imagine that Commander of the Gates (or Defender, or whatever you want to call it) would carry with it a hefty powerup. Nic would then get his chance to play with his toys—us, and this planet—while relatively secure in his position, as it'd be insane to try to dislodge him permanently; the Outsiders would win.

[Mira]

   There is an old Chinese saying, "Be careful for what you wish for.  YOU MAY GET IT!"   I think that is what is going to
happen to Nick.. Notice that neither Michael nor more importantly Uriel were all that upset that Nick ended up with the Grail...

[spiritofair]

I think that Christ's resurrection was the passing of the mantle of the White God from the Old Testament God to the current White God. 

Perhaps Nick wants to force the passing of the mantle to himself.  Talk about ambitious...

[Griffyn612]

I still like the old theory that he wanted to summon the Antichrist using the five relics.  It fits with his previous use of turning a good item into something bad.

[raidem]

Raisins,

If you read the excerpt of the planning between Harry and Kringle you would know Nic's true aim wasn't what Nic would say it was.  Harry and we, at least me, should know this.  Therefore, Nic's primary objective wasn't the Grail but something extra that went unnamed.  And, It likely was the knife.

“First,” I said, “Nicodemus is after something powerful. I don’t know what it is, but I do know that if I can get him to tell us what he’s after, it’s going to be a lie. He’d never let anyone know his true goal if he could help it.” “I concur,” Kringle said.

Now, after you read this above, can you reread what I posted, it might make more sense after being reminded of this conversation and that the Grail wasn't Nic's true aim.

I think his main purpose in getting into Hades vault was to get the Knife.  He must have believed Harry had the remaining object(s) of power on him as he didn't think Anna had them on her.  It is likely he didn't know how many objects there were.  He did know though that Harry had a 'knife' up his sleeve.  (The metal had clinked on something Harry carried and Nic noticed the noise/vibration etc.)

The last time I recall him have a Cup like object resembling the Holy Grail was in Death Masks when Nic and Deidre had Harry imprisoned and Nic decided to bleed him to death.  He didn't have the necessary cup so he had to delay but was interrupted by Shiro before he got it.  So I'm thinking Nic intends to bleed someone then into the cup then use their blood...

[raidem]

I still like the old theory that he wanted to summon the Antichrist using the five relics.  It fits with his previous use of turning a good item into something bad.

It really is a horrible idea. It's a great way to ostracize a great many of fans dabbling with the Antichrist in his fiction.  Now, if you wanted it to summon the devil.  That would be good, but leave Christ/AntiChrist out of it.

[Griffyn612]

It really is a horrible idea. It's a great way to ostracize a great many of fans dabbling with the Antichrist in his fiction.  Now, if you wanted it to summon the devil.  That would be good, but leave Christ/AntiChrist out of it.

Whatchu talkin' bout, Willis? 

[Mira]

Raisins,

If you read the excerpt of the planning between Harry and Kringle you would know Nic's true aim wasn't what Nic would say it was.  Harry and we, at least me, should know this.  Therefore, Nic's primary objective wasn't the Grail but something extra that went unnamed.  And, It likely was the knife.

Now, after you read this above, can you reread what I posted, it might make more sense after being reminded of this conversation and that the Grail wasn't Nic's true aim.

I think his main purpose in getting into Hades vault was to get the Knife.  He must have believed Harry had the remaining object(s) of power on him as he didn't think Anna had them on her.  It is likely he didn't know how many objects there were.  He did know though that Harry had a 'knife' up his sleeve.  (The metal had clinked on something Harry carried and Nic noticed the noise/vibration etc.)

The last time I recall him have a Cup like object resembling the Holy Grail was in Death Masks when Nic and Deidre had Harry imprisoned and Nic decided to bleed him to death.  He didn't have the necessary cup so he had to delay but was interrupted by Shiro before he got it.  So I'm thinking Nic intends to bleed someone then into the cup then use their blood...

I agree with this, but it all backfired when he got what he said he wanted, the Grail..   I repeat that neither Michael nor Uriel were that upset about that fact, which is significant in my opinion..

[Rasins]

Raisins,

If you read the excerpt of the planning between Harry and Kringle you would know Nic's true aim wasn't what Nic would say it was.  Harry and we, at least me, should know this.  Therefore, Nic's primary objective wasn't the Grail but something extra that went unnamed.  And, It likely was the knife.

Now, after you read this above, can you reread what I posted, it might make more sense after being reminded of this conversation and that the Grail wasn't Nic's true aim.

I think his main purpose in getting into Hades vault was to get the Knife.  He must have believed Harry had the remaining object(s) of power on him as he didn't think Anna had them on her.  It is likely he didn't know how many objects there were.  He did know though that Harry had a 'knife' up his sleeve.  (The metal had clinked on something Harry carried and Nic noticed the noise/vibration etc.)

The last time I recall him have a Cup like object resembling the Holy Grail was in Death Masks when Nic and Deidre had Harry imprisoned and Nic decided to bleed him to death.  He didn't have the necessary cup so he had to delay but was interrupted by Shiro before he got it.  So I'm thinking Nic intends to bleed someone then into the cup then use their blood...

Oh, no, I got it.  I'm just postulating on what he might have wanted the items for.  We know the Grail wasn't his primary goal, just his stated one. 

But the other thing I'm thinking about is what powers the items bestow on the bearer and how he could or would use them.

[jonas]

It really is a horrible idea. It's a great way to ostracize a great many of fans dabbling with the Antichrist in his fiction.  Now, if you wanted it to summon the devil.  That would be good, but leave Christ/AntiChrist out of it.

I guess he better stop quoting Yeat's the second coming and making it an integral part of the story then lol? (or making these 'peace' talks 7 years before the end of the Bat, with it's kickoff 3.5 years in)

[raidem]

Hey. Let him go there with the Christ/AntiChrist and see if I buy any more of his books.  There are other ways to get the books rather than buy them.