Author Topic: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?  (Read 5812 times)

Offline groinkick

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Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« on: March 10, 2018, 05:55:17 AM »
We know Harry has some sort of power over Outsiders according to Lash.  But is that all?  Lash who was Lasciel's shadow was also influenced by Harry.  Uriel was concerned by Harry giving him a nickname.  According to Jim Mab keeps her enemies close, and Titania is afraid of Harry.

So this begs the question.  Does Harry, a starborn, hold some sort of influence over supernatural being's in general?  We still don't know the nature of why he has influence over Outsiders, or how it works, but maybe it's not limited to just them? 

Thoughts, idea's?
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2018, 12:01:30 PM »
We know there are different spectrums of magic.  Even within "mortal" magic, there are variations. 
Quote
I brought my shield around to intersect the new attack—and realized at the last second that each individual thread of energy was coming at me on a slightly different wavelength of the spectrum of magical energy, a variance of frequencies that my shield couldn’t stretch to cover. Not all at the same time, anyway. I countered three of them and nearly got the fourth, but it slipped by me, and I never even touched the fifth strand.

This also demonstrates that Harry's magic doesn't inherently span all the mortal spectrums.  He got a few, but it would have required additional effort and preparation to address all of them.

Likewise, we've seen Harry's magic fail against Raith's Outsider protection, and Scarecrow's (seemingly) fear-based immunity.  There may be others, but those are the only two I can recall off the top of my head.

But even though his magic is fallible, his will is not.

We assume that a mortal will can go toe to toe with the likes of Vadderung, Before, and Mother Winter because Harry seems to imply it can.  But it might be that Harry's will power has more potency than normal. 

His will is more like faith magic, in that it seems to work against everything.  I'm not saying it's faith magic, but it might be similar in its universal effect.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2018, 07:27:41 PM »
We know there are different spectrums of magic.  Even within "mortal" magic, there are variations. 
This also demonstrates that Harry's magic doesn't inherently span all the mortal spectrums.  He got a few, but it would have required additional effort and preparation to address all of them.

Likewise, we've seen Harry's magic fail against Raith's Outsider protection, and Scarecrow's (seemingly) fear-based immunity.  There may be others, but those are the only two I can recall off the top of my head.

But even though his magic is fallible, his will is not.

We assume that a mortal will can go toe to toe with the likes of Vadderung, Before, and Mother Winter because Harry seems to imply it can.  But it might be that Harry's will power has more potency than normal. 

His will is more like faith magic, in that it seems to work against everything.  I'm not saying it's faith magic, but it might be similar in its universal effect.

That's a good possibility.  I mean being a Starborn is supposed to be of some importance, and have influence over Outsiders but at best he has survived against them, and hasn't really displayed power over them.  So whatever power he has, he hasn't really shown it's full potential I don't think.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline jonas

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2018, 12:22:45 AM »
Going to go with the vague idea Outsiders and Angels are not so different in their original formation. Look at the Naaglooshi, now worthy of DR but originally an angelic being outright.
Thinking it revolves around stars themselves and their inherent shadows.(those who stand in the light....) Mayhaps stars themselves are 'immortals' and those that go dark are still 'remembered by the universe' via emptiness/shadow itself... which would make a good point towards empty night I think...
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Offline raidem

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2018, 12:57:59 AM »
I'm going to go with Starborn trait being something equivalent to a 'special bloodline' but that isn't simply bound by blood but by a confluence of circumstances.  In Amber you had Corwin creating a spinned off multiverse that really never got used.  I liken Harry's Starborn trait tapping into a specialized bloodline and circumstance that gives Harry an ability of mastery over this multiverse on some level.  This places Harry's family tree to be of particular importance.  In particular, I'd focus much attention on Harry's father Malcolm Dresden.  And, I'd wager that he has close links with a family operating on another scale of reality like one on a multiversal one.  Where they visit and live occassionally in our World, before going back to where they exist in the Above Reality.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 01:03:49 AM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2018, 05:48:06 AM »
I'm going to go with Starborn trait being something equivalent to a 'special bloodline' but that isn't simply bound by blood but by a confluence of circumstances.  In Amber you had Corwin creating a spinned off multiverse that really never got used.  I liken Harry's Starborn trait tapping into a specialized bloodline and circumstance that gives Harry an ability of mastery over this multiverse on some level.  This places Harry's family tree to be of particular importance.  In particular, I'd focus much attention on Harry's father Malcolm Dresden.  And, I'd wager that he has close links with a family operating on another scale of reality like one on a multiversal one.  Where they visit and live occassionally in our World, before going back to where they exist in the Above Reality.

Only way I see this working is if the power talked about was the ability to send them back to their original reality, away from the Outer Gates.

This would mean the "outside" is part of reality, just walled off.  The Outsiders came from another dimension, and secured a passage to reality outside the Outer Gates.  Or it could be that the Outside is just another dimension, and the Outer Gates are a protective barrier between dimensions.  A hole or gateway was opened that allowed the Outsiders to attack the Outer Gates.  Harry could be the one capable of sealing the gateway or hole that they are using to attack the border between the two realities.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 05:54:14 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Zohak

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2018, 07:04:14 AM »
Im going with the great old ones teaching humans to be like them that is the outsiders.
Outer gods like Yog sothoth have guided beings throughout existence  could be tied to
starborns.

https://www.yog-sothoth.com/wiki/index.php/Cthulhu_Mythos_Timeline

The Call of Cthulhu
By H. P. Lovecraft
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/cc.aspx

(Found Among the Papers of the Late
Francis Wayland Thurston, of Boston)

    “Of such great powers or beings there may be conceivably a survival . . . a survival of a hugely remote period when . . . consciousness was manifested, perhaps, in shapes and forms long since withdrawn before the tide of advancing humanity . . . forms of which poetry and legend alone have caught a flying memory and called them gods, monsters, mythical beings of all sorts and kinds. . . .”
    —Algernon Blackwood.

Then, whispered Castro, those first men formed the cult around small idols which the Great Ones shewed them; idols brought in dim aeras from dark stars. That cult would never die till the stars came right again, and the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom. Meanwhile the cult, by appropriate rites, must keep alive the memory of those ancient ways and shadow forth the prophecy of their return.
In the elder time chosen men had talked with the entombed Old Ones in dreams, but then something had happened. The great stone city R’lyeh, with its monoliths and sepulchres, had sunk beneath the waves; and the deep waters, full of the one primal mystery through which not even thought can pass, had cut off the spectral intercourse. But memory never died, and high-priests said that the city would rise again when the stars were right. Then came out of the earth the black spirits of earth, mouldy and shadowy, and full of dim rumours picked up in caverns beneath forgotten sea-bottoms. But of them old Castro dared not speak much. He cut himself off hurriedly, and no amount of persuasion or subtlety could elicit more in this direction. The size of the Old Ones, too, he curiously declined to mention. Of the cult, he said that he thought the centre lay amid the pathless deserts of Arabia, where Irem, the City of Pillars, dreams hidden and untouched. It was not allied to the European witch-cult, and was virtually unknown beyond its members. No book had ever really hinted of it, though the deathless Chinamen said that there were double meanings in the Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred which the initiated might read as they chose, especially the much-discussed couplet:
 
“That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.”

Offline jonas

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 10:15:35 AM »
Quote
Then came out of the earth the black spirits of earth, mouldy and shadowy, and full of dim rumours picked up in caverns beneath forgotten sea-bottoms.
If your boned up on seeing the tie-ins and cross overs(instead of insisting your seeing what you want to) you may notice that's a reference to Cowl and his portals/where they go, as well as that moldy 'aura' in general.
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Offline exartiem

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 01:35:33 PM »
The part about Harry nick-naming Uriel, I think, is just part of being human.  I believe in Genesis, God had Adam give names to all things, thus giving him power over those things.  This is a power all mortal humans have.  Perhaps being Starborn gives Harry a boost to it.

Titania is afraid of Harry because he has already killed at least one immortal.

Mab is Mab.

Offline raidem

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 06:03:35 PM »
There is more to it than that.

There is a history of the queens dying last time things got awful or off in the wizarding world and a starborn was in the mix of things.  Mab and titania realize the true danger Harry is per woj which is why mab keeps her enemies close.

Mab considers Harry a threat even to herself.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 07:02:23 PM »
There is more to it than that.

There is a history of the queens dying last time things got awful or off in the wizarding world and a starborn was in the mix of things.  Mab and titania realize the true danger Harry is per woj which is why mab keeps her enemies close.

Mab considers Harry a threat even to herself.

Correct.  I believe Jim mentioned the last time a Starborn was running around things got really bad, and that's when the Queen/Queens died.  Which makes it damn frustrating not knowing exactly what a Starborn is, and what they can do.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2018, 01:25:49 PM »
My take on being Starborn is that they are the type of people who tend to be fulcrums upon which major events turn. Harry and Elaine have both been right in the thick of several major, major happenings on the world stage.

Maybe my thinking is influenced by the cliched Chosen One trope, but I think that, in the Dresden Universe, there are a few people born in a generation who have the potential—by a mix of power/capability, will, and opportunity—to shape events, and thus the world. Harry's power/capability, and apparently that of all starborn, is the ability to wield power over Outsiders, whatever that means (functionally); by dint of being who he is, Harry is also present and actively participating in monumental, geological shifts in the political (and therefore economic and social) landscape of the planet.

(If I can bandy about my pet theory about William the Conqueror, I also think that he was a Starborn, and his presence upset the balance of power for the following thousand years, literally).

To clarify, I think that Harry's Starborn power isn't just limited to his power over Outsiders, but his ability to impact everything and everyone around him. I think that he is decidedly...unpredictable, as shown by the Gatekeeper (who never foresaw Harry claiming Demonreach), and the several times he's bucked Fate during the books (dying in Dead Beat, dying again in Changes but coming back, et cetera).

I don't think that he has a clearly defined Power over anything but Outsiders—for instance, I don't think that he can command Fae just by being Starborn—he's gotta bribe 'em with Za.

Offline WereElephant

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2018, 07:19:18 PM »
So this begs the question.  Does Harry, a starborn, hold some sort of influence over supernatural being's in general?  We still don't know the nature of why he has influence over Outsiders, or how it works, but maybe it's not limited to just them? 

I'm guessing that being Starborn only directly gives him a magical advantage against Outsiders, whatever the machinery behind that may be.

However, given the rarity of Starborn and the interest they draw from other powers, indirectly he has a lot of extra power from it. At one point he had Hellfire. He now has Soulfire. Winter's power is at his fingertips. He has probably the best mortal knowledge of the ways of the Nevernever. His sanctum is the prison of the supernatural's nastiest customers that aren't evidently necessary evils. He guards a Sword of the Cross and four relics of the Crucifixion. Mab, Odin, and Uriel all have vested interests in seeing him succeed (given certain stipulations). And circumstances have given him a will, a mortal will, that can defy Mother Winter and He Who Walks Before. Indirectly, Dresden may be a mortal, but because of the circumstances he was dealth, he has the impact of an entire mythic pantheon.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2018, 06:39:12 PM »
I think Starborn means he can force Outsiders to his will.

As to others, I think his naming "power" is just like every other human being.  We like to name things, and that limits them.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Could Harry have power over more than just Outsiders?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2018, 09:07:46 PM »
As to others, I think his naming "power" is just like every other human being.  We like to name things, and that limits them.
No, I think his is specifically unusual and/or advanced, but only because of that line from Uriel in GS:

Quote
Names have tremendous power, Dresden. Yet mortals toss them left and right as though they were toys. It’s like watching infants play with hand grenades sometimes.” The ghost of a smile touched his face as he glanced at me. “Some more so than others."
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