Author Topic: TT Harry in Proven Guilty  (Read 18641 times)

Offline raidem

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2018, 03:43:25 PM »
Say Demonreach was built on 5 parallel realities exactly the same except for the time at which Merlin lays down the foundations for the prison. The foundations of the prison are done at different times in reference to a standard timeline.  But they are synced such that the spells interlace, resonate at nearly the same time.

To undo Demonreach, one option is to go back in time and prevent Merlin laying down the foundations at anypoint in time or parallel reality.  I don't think there is enough power to undue this act as you first have to fight against conservation of history, then you have to fight against metaphysically significant events, and then you have to fight against Odin's admonition of the high price of traveling back in time to change the past with huge unknowns resulting in such an event.  There also would likely be huge temporal waves warning people of the impending attack.  So, that wasn't what occurred.

Next, what likely happened was something in a close to parallel reality to our Dresdenverse time that got attacked.  Since Demonreach was created in say 5 times, I think their is a clock for each of these times/parallel realities starting off at the point of Demonreach's creation.  In other words, five parallel worlds are/were perfectly aligned time wise at the moment of Demonreach creation.  So when 200 years passes, time on each of the parallel worlds could be 600AD, 800AD, 1000AD, 1200AD, 1400AD, 1600AD depending upon the date of it's creation.  So since Demonreach was attacked in our reality in 2014ish, it would need to be attacked in the other realities on staggered dates in the 5 realities in total possibly all at once.

Quote
It always bothered me why Maeve and Lily waited to do their assault until Harry was alive and kicking. It never made any sense. Why not do it while Harry was a ghost (I get it, Mab was on the island), but they've had years to do it from BEFORE Harry was even the Warden. I've always kind of assumed that Harry claiming Demonreach and personifying the island's genuis loci made it stronger (cuz now it has a Warden), but also made it vulnerable, since now it's a physical thing that can be assaulted, if that makes sense.

Even if you accept that it had to be done on Halloween (because Maeve also wanted to kill Lily, or the attack required it for some other technical reason), there were several Halloweens' worth of missed chances, and a few shots at it before Harry was awake.

Therefore, I propose the following:
First, I think Demonreach had to be awakened in order for it to be made vulnerable.  So Harry had to claim Demonreach in Turn Coat before the Cold Days attack was even possible.  Next, I think Harry's unique nature of being Starborn, Warden, and being vulnerable to Winter Lady is what was the pivotal pieces Outsiders needed before Cold Day's attack could commence.  There are other likely required setups that needed to occur.  I like the idea that the Cold Days attack had already attacked and was completed at least in one reality already, so the main events were fairly set in stone.  So, the Cold Days attack we viewed was in a staggered parallel reality where a 'future' Cold Days plot had already occurred in our favor but may have played out in some ways differently.  This makes in some sense our Cold Days a clean up operation and gives new light on Vadderung's comment to Harry "Maybe you already have" in answering Harry's question "Can I do this?"

This then allows for plots in some other staggered realities to occur. But, I think it's fairly safe to assume that once Demonreach is safe in one parallel reality, it likely is in all unless the Outsiders attempted to redo the attack by traveling back in time or choosing a different parallel reality to make the push into. (That is if Demonreach can even be undone by attacking it in only one parallel reality.)  If it can't be undone once an assault fails in one staggered reality, then the Outsiders plan isn't really the destruction of Demonreach after that but to maximize the destruction short of it, like having the Warden release all of it's Prisoners voluntarily by having Maeve command Harry to release them.

As to PG and Cold Days, I think there will end up being a link between the two and another book will start tying each and it together.  I think we will learn more about the importance of those individuals that ended up at Arctis Tor in PG.  Murphy, Molly, Charity, Thomas, Lash, Lasciel via Lash, Harry.  We already know the importance of Molly and Harry; though we will likely learn more.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 04:05:54 PM by raidem »
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Offline groinkick

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2018, 09:44:12 PM »
Haven't read every post but will ask a few questions.

1.  Why the time period of Proven Guilty? 
2.  What is the expected outcome?
3.  Can Harry go against the time conservation principle?
4.  How can he time travel?

My guess about how he time travels is he will use the Lay line, or one of the prisoners on the Island.


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Offline jonas

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2018, 12:34:13 AM »
Haven't read every post but will ask a few questions.

1.  Why the time period of Proven Guilty? 
2.  What is the expected outcome?
3.  Can Harry go against the time conservation principle?
4.  How can he time travel?

My guess about how he time travels is he will use the Lay line, or one of the prisoners on the Island.
1 Not the only one I see, but... cause Molly and her future always directly effected Harry and his own?
2 What would have happened without the event's of PG, esp the GK time travel plot? Molly and Harry on the run for their lives is the greatest probability I think.
3 Bob specifically explained how to do so. The thing your trying to avoid is actually violating free choice while doing your TT.
4 Lotsa ways, but or this one i'll go with LC, it creates a thaumaturgic connection in the future to the past when it was 100% accurate. the energy build up in one spot was someone coming through it. This is actually two fold, it causes the need for LC to be fixed, and since Harry would never have tried to use it without the GK's message he would not have originally died in the attempt(this is them fixing the conservation method to prevent paradox/splitting). Farther, in the original, he had time to wait and had eventually come to rely upon Lasciel when he ultimately did use it. This is a big point in the books, he admits he wouldn't try it if it wasn't necessary(which it wasn't anyway but ;p go figure)
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Offline Kindler

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2018, 04:21:36 PM »
3.  Can Harry go against the time conservation principle?

I've been thinking about this quite a bit with regards to Proven Guilty, and I'm not sure that the Rule of Conservation of History will (necessarily) apply here, at least in the grand scheme of things; I think that Dresden, heading back to Proven Guilty, already helped shape the events of Proven Guilty, so Time Travel Harry's presence is already part of this "history." Because the books only ever detail the already-changed timeline, I think that the only danger to Conservation of History is if Harry doesn't go back. Basically, I think that Harry had created a stable time loop, and any adventure into the past will reveal that he had already changed it. This may manifest itself as Harry preserving the timeline as best he can while someone is running around trying to muck it up, and inadvertently causing some of the events of Proven Guilty.

Does that make sense to anyone else, or am I just talking out of my posterior?

Offline Lost Merlin

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2018, 05:36:43 PM »
I've been thinking about this quite a bit with regards to Proven Guilty, and I'm not sure that the Rule of Conservation of History will (necessarily) apply here, at least in the grand scheme of things; I think that Dresden, heading back to Proven Guilty, already helped shape the events of Proven Guilty, so Time Travel Harry's presence is already part of this "history." Because the books only ever detail the already-changed timeline, I think that the only danger to Conservation of History is if Harry doesn't go back. Basically, I think that Harry had created a stable time loop, and any adventure into the past will reveal that he had already changed it. This may manifest itself as Harry preserving the timeline as best he can while someone is running around trying to muck it up, and inadvertently causing some of the events of Proven Guilty.

Does that make sense to anyone else, or am I just talking out of my posterior?
Makes Total Sense.  Think Harry Potter 3 (Prisoner of Azkaban).  Harry P's dad didn't show up.  It was Harry P. 

Offline raidem

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2018, 06:21:27 PM »
Quote
I've been thinking about this quite a bit with regards to Proven Guilty, and I'm not sure that the Rule of Conservation of History will (necessarily) apply here, at least in the grand scheme of things; I think that Dresden, heading back to Proven Guilty, already helped shape the events of Proven Guilty, so Time Travel Harry's presence is already part of this "history." Because the books only ever detail the already-changed timeline, I think that the only danger to Conservation of History is if Harry doesn't go back. Basically, I think that Harry had created a stable time loop, and any adventure into the past will reveal that he had already changed it. This may manifest itself as Harry preserving the timeline as best he can while someone is running around trying to muck it up, and inadvertently causing some of the events of Proven Guilty.

Does that make sense to anyone else, or am I just talking out of my posterior?
Well, since we are already going with this as the set up explanation. I'll say there has already been a stable time loop back in time in which Murphy ascended to Mab.  So, there isn't much danger to 'conservation of history' as long as Murphy does go back to ascend to be Mab.

Hmm. Maybe there will be a Murphy that ascends to become Mab during Proven Guilty somewhere in some parallel reality.  Murphy could ascend to become 1000+ years ago, during Proven Guilty, around the time of Cold Days, or sometime in teh future.  These would be events in our reality or parallel realities in which Mab was potentially 'vulnerable.'
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 06:26:18 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
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Offline beetnemesis

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2018, 06:34:35 PM »
About the missing Fae book: Good catch, but it doesn't seem like a book is missing. From Small Favor, page 24 on Nook:

To me, the exchange indicates that Dresden knows there's an entry in one of the books, but not which one, so he's doing broad research with things that are available to him. The outlier is the Calvin and Hobbes book. Harry eventually finds the entry on the eighth one, so it doesn't look like anything is missing.

I had misspoke, before- what I actually meant to say is that a time-traveler took some OTHER book, not related to Gruffs. Maybe he needed a book, but didn't want a gap in the spines to show, and so used a different one? 

Not sure, to be honest. However, I do think that a time traveler is responsible for that book there. It's not like Harry is reading Calvin and Hobbes down in his lab, nor would he store the book there!



Offline Kindler

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2018, 06:47:30 PM »
I had misspoke, before- what I actually meant to say is that a time-traveler took some OTHER book, not related to Gruffs. Maybe he needed a book, but didn't want a gap in the spines to show, and so used a different one? 

Not sure, to be honest. However, I do think that a time traveler is responsible for that book there. It's not like Harry is reading Calvin and Hobbes down in his lab, nor would he store the book there!

I think it's Bonnie's:

I think Bonnie came with him. She hasn't graduated to trashy romance novels yet; she's still on comics. And she would've been able to help Harry remember what the specific flaws were.

Offline YoungestGruff

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2018, 10:31:18 PM »
I think Bonnie came with him. She hasn't graduated to trashy romance novels yet; she's still on comics. And she would've been able to help Harry remember what the specific flaws were.

That sounds plausible. Makes more sense then bringing Maggie along, too; Bonnie can contribute in a meaningful fashion.

But, you know, why bring Bonnie and not Bob? (Well, obviously, something's going to happen that makes Bonnie a better, or indeed the only . . . Oh. Oh, no.)

Offline jonas

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2018, 10:50:11 PM »
Bonnie likely see's more of existence than Bob does being born from angelic roots, she probably see's the 'faith-length' and it's attributes easier. Like space/time...
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2018, 01:09:24 AM »
That sounds plausible. Makes more sense then bringing Maggie along, too; Bonnie can contribute in a meaningful fashion.

But, you know, why bring Bonnie and not Bob? (Well, obviously, something's going to happen that makes Bonnie a better, or indeed the only . . . Oh. Oh, no.)
Nothing so complicated.  Bob is with Butters now.  Harry has Bonnie. 

And Maggie going along certainly seems like a Longshot.  But it'd be interesting.

Offline Lost Merlin

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2018, 12:44:58 PM »

And Maggie going along certainly seems like a Longshot.  But it'd be interesting.

I could see Jim making it an accidental time travel when maybe Harry has Maggie on the island.  And now not only does Harry have to sneak and hid from himself he also has to do so with Mouse and Maggie in tow.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2018, 07:36:12 PM »
I could see Jim making it an accidental time travel when maybe Harry has Maggie on the island.  And now not only does Harry have to sneak and hid from himself he also has to do so with Mouse and Maggie in tow.
That's what I was thinking.  That Demonreach would be the origin of the time travel method, and she'd accidentally be sent back as well because she was hiding in the cottage or something.  But the odds of that happening in a believable fashion during a planned time travel event seem low. 

Offline raidem

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2018, 01:34:36 PM »
I'm listening to Proven Guilty now.  And I just got reminded of Harry and Mab's talk in the elevator after visiting with Nicodemus in Skin Game.  The parallel is Harry and Murphy's talk in the elevator at the hospital.  It makes me somewhat wonder if Harry will bring along Murphy in his time travel trip back to Proven Guilty.  Maybe even this future Murphy is at times who Harry interacts with.  That or Mab speaks to Harry via Murphy.  Mab/Murphy time travels into the past to participate in PG. Etc. Etc.

So, a Mab in one parallel reality requests the services of another reality's Mab to deal with a situation that strictly confined/limited Mab's ability to act.  She gets around it by bringing in another Mab, a destined Mab, a Winter Lady, a destined Winter Lady, or herself all accompanied by the Winter Knight.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 01:48:50 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
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Offline jonas

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Re: TT Harry in Proven Guilty
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2018, 06:05:06 PM »
Snip:
But, raidem, that's part of the whole deal. Merlin is an uberWizard, so far beyond that even Bob can't totally grasp what happened. It's quantum physics magic: if you understand it, you really don't understand it.
Speak for yourself.
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