Changes and the Curse that....

[Quantus]

OK, so dont hate me, but this is actually the only instance (aside from the PG weirdness) where I actually see potential for a Time Travel hook.  I think the two-mintue Gap in his memory (in which he was apparently interacting with people but still acting "out of it") is an instance where a Future-Harry came back (in this model Time Travelers would inhabit their past bodies rather than the kinds that risks meeting themselves). 

Given the Law of Conservation of History, that event at CI is likely too significant to Change, and so would be something of a hard wall against Time Travelers (Fixed Point in Time, to use Dr Who terms), so it would make sense for an amateur time traveler to land there.  Meanwhile, all those that gained visions, those with Magic and especially those with incubating Life/Souls in them (ie pregnancy) were perceiving reverberations from a changed Timeline.  So all those visions of "dead chil­dren. The world in flames. Ter­ror and death spread­ing across the globe in an un­stop­pable wave, de­stroy­ing any­thing re­sem­bling or­der or civ­iliza­tion" are not "Prophesy of the Future" so much as they are "Visions of a Future that Would Have Been". 

[Kindler]

Given the Law of Conservation of History, that event at CI is likely too significant to Change, and so would be something of a hard wall against Time Travelers (Fixed Point in Time, to use Dr Who terms), so it would make sense for an amateur time traveler to land there.  Meanwhile, all those that gained visions, those with Magic and especially those with incubating Life/Souls in them (ie pregnancy) were perceiving reverberations from a changed Timeline.  So all those visions of "dead chil­dren. The world in flames. Ter­ror and death spread­ing across the globe in an un­stop­pable wave, de­stroy­ing any­thing re­sem­bling or­der or civ­iliza­tion" are not "Prophesy of the Future" so much as they are "Visions of a Future that Would Have Been".

Trying to understand; you're saying that Future Harry travels back to Chichen Itza because he wants to prevent Susan from dying, or preserve the Red Court for some reason, and that he failed to do so because of some kind of Universal Law of Time Staying the Same About Big Stuff? And that the visions everyone saw were the horrid future that would have befallen them if Harry had succeeded in changing what we see in Changes?

[groinkick]

Trying to understand; you're saying that Future Harry travels back to Chichen Itza because he wants to prevent Susan from dying, or preserve the Red Court for some reason, and that he failed to do so because of some kind of Universal Law of Time Staying the Same About Big Stuff? And that the visions everyone saw were the horrid future that would have befallen them if Harry had succeeded in changing what we see in Changes?

I think Quantus is stating that people were seeing the visions of what would have happened if Harry had failed, and the reason why is because it was such a large event that time travel could not undo it, so it's a permanent change allowing people to see what would have happened if not for Harry ending the Red Court.

I disagree...  I believe the visions are the opposite.  They are seeing a possible future that they have been locked into because of what Harry did.  It was a massive fork in the road....  A decision was made, an action taken, and the world is now on a very dangerous path. 

[Quantus]

Trying to understand; you're saying that Future Harry travels back to Chichen Itza because he wants to prevent Susan from dying, or preserve the Red Court for some reason, and that he failed to do so because of some kind of Universal Law of Time Staying the Same About Big Stuff? And that the visions everyone saw were the horrid future that would have befallen them if Harry had succeeded in changing what we see in Changes?

Groinkick has the bulk of it.  My theory is that the events we saw in Changes are what happened AFTER some future Harry came back in time to fix Something.  The visions would thus have been the Future that would have happened if he had Failed (or never Chosen to go back at all), but the Casefile is being told from the POV of the world/timeline where TT-Harry was successful. 

I think this falls out with Groinkick and myself believing the same general shape of things, just with a very stark Optimist/Pessimist difference on the outcome/interpretation.  I think the Good Guys will (and thus Timey Whimey Already Have) won the Day.  Sounds like GK thinks they are all royally F*cked. 

[raidem]

I've long argued that future Harry revisits changes.  I stated that he gets overlayed on top of Harry.  And that future Harry has a hidden exchange with Mrs spunklecrief, who is either retired mother summer or conduit for the mothers.

I believe there is a plot regarding the athame, the red's missing shipment that will later get explained.

I can see Harry returning to ci, but I think in most histories the reds were wiped out.  I could see Harry going back to ci to adjust things so that order of st giles didn't get wiped out in what he did.  Maybe he will try to place many of them within a safe area within the NN.

[kazimmoinuddin]

I have this theory that a version of this curse could be used on demonreach. Like with the skinwalkers, use them to enact a ritual against their scions and apprentices. In a way, those skinwalkers are the source of power for their students and descendants. Not necessarily killing them, but stripping them of the skinwalker power and essence they might carry. The dark energy and genus loci might be enough to make up for human sacrifices.

Say the Wcv are all descendent from the same progenitor, such a ritual would remove their demon.
I have long suspected there is a link between Drakul and the BCV. So if the ritual is done on him, it could permanently deal with the BCV.

[Griffyn612]

Likely True, but unfortunately I think Id-Harry counts as Harry for the purposes of that sort of Permission, at least some of the time; after all Lash was dealing with Id-Harry when Ego-Harry was being too stubborn.

After seeing Mab manipulate his memories, I wouldn't put it past Id from knowing how to do it himself.

[groinkick]

After seeing Mab manipulate his memories, I wouldn't put it past Id from knowing how to do it himself.

Or Bonnie.....  I know she's not supposed to be very mature but she, and ID Harry look like they were working together sometimes.

[raidem]

I'm not sure if this really goes here but I'm reminded that when Bob plays the video of demonreach getting getting attacked through time and space, Harry says the dissonance is like an oncoming headache.  So, I wonder if some of his headaches have been mental attacks on Harry, timely wimey stuff in the background, feedback from things happening to his other selves in parallel worlds, hidden dangers to demonreach or the timeline.

[jonas]

Likely True, but unfortunately I think Id-Harry counts as Harry for the purposes of that sort of Permission, at least some of the time; after all Lash was dealing with Id-Harry when Ego-Harry was being too stubborn.

Super ego actually, if it was supposed to be his conscious mind. Ego is more like what Harry's mantle would be formed out of, self identity, baggage.

[Quantus]

Super ego actually, if it was supposed to be his conscious mind. Ego is more like what Harry's mantle would be formed out of, self identity, baggage.

Eh, it gets a little more complex than that once you jump to the full ID/Ego/Super-Ego model.  Both ego and Super-ego has conscious and unconscious elements, they just had different goals and methods. 

Best I've foudn was the Iceberg explanation:

[Snark Knight]

Say the Wcv are all descendent from the same progenitor, such a ritual would remove their demon.
I have long suspected there is a link between Drakul and the BCV. So if the ritual is done on him, it could permanently deal with the BCV.

There is, but it's indirect. Per WOJ:

And also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn’t a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father’s approval.
It didn’t work out so well.

[jonas]

Eh, it gets a little more complex than that once you jump to the full ID/Ego/Super-Ego model.  Both ego and Super-ego has conscious and unconscious elements, they just had different goals and methods. 

Best I've foudn was the Iceberg explanation:

Not to me... I mean, i'm kinda ad libbing based upon mine own belief as it has grown up beside the DF, but to me the 'super-consciousness'(because sub or un just don't work for me) as it relates to the super ego is actually the connection between soul and body,(lots of actual theory on that one, from the halo to Taoist alchemy) So anytime the 'unconscious' element of the super ego acts out, it's actually your soul shining through, your genuine nature.(which is backed by super ego being the seat of your religious and ethical principles)
As the connection in the DF is pretty precise on free will/choice basically being a byproduct of soul makes me think it's the conscious mind, the ego more closely related to the identity.(see word origins for greek name/mask ect... or just look in your writing thread on ethical characters, I put part of it in their directly quoted)

Although... perhaps this is erroneous as Hwwb4 was literally a consciousness without soul(no eye's, big give away) so perhaps the superego could be construed as the mind. Been trying to fit your Egyptian make up theory into this one btw...

[Quantus]

Not to me... I mean, i'm kinda ad libbing based upon mine own belief as it has grown up beside the DF, but to me the 'super-consciousness'(because sub or un just don't work for me) as it relates to the super ego is actually the connection between soul and body,(lots of actual theory on that one, from the halo to Taoist alchemy) So anytime the 'unconscious' element of the super ego acts out, it's actually your soul shining through, your genuine nature.(which is backed by super ego being the seat of your religious and ethical principles)

No worries, I just grabbed that from the wikipedia on the Super-ego. I think the split it is trying to capture is the Superego is your Learned Behaviors (cultural inhibitions, etc.) while you Id is your inner desires, and your Ego is the Consciousness that tries to mediate between the two.  I never entirely liked that model, or rather I never really liked most of what Freud came up with; he seemed convinced that deep down we are all as horrible and unhappy as he was, the poor depressed coke-fiend.  But the general idea of a balancing act between the rational and emotional does ring true with me. 

As the connection in the DF is pretty precise on free will/choice basically being a byproduct of soul makes me think it's the conscious mind, the ego more closely related to the identity.(see word origins for greek name/mask ect... or just look in your writing thread on ethical characters, I put part of it in their directly quoted)

Ill be honest, Ive long been leaning toward the idea that Id-Harry has simply been Lying and is not a natural part of Harry at all; rather I think he's a more insidious and/or intelligent (Outsider) version of the Hunger Demon that WCV's are born with. 

Although... perhaps this is erroneous as Hwwb4 was literally a consciousness without soul(no eye's, big give away) so perhaps the superego could be construed as the mind. Been trying to fit your Egyptian make up theory into this one btw...

Oh lord...I never actually tried to fit Outsiders into that framework too hard, mostly because I've come to think they are trans-dimensional in a way nothing we've met (save the Archangels and maaaaybe the Mothers).  Two data-points of support I have for this are Harry's description of HWWb4 being somehow cosmically deeper than even Mab, and also the WOJ that the Outsiders are just themselves and might look different depending on what universe they are invading at the moment. 

I do generally see Nemesis and other Outsider possessing spirits (like HWWB4) to be some combination of Spirit and Soul (relative to the level of Nemfection). For the level of Maeve I think Nemesis moved in and took over the place/function that would normally have been occupied by a Soul (just made of Outsider energy rather than Inside-Soul/Creation-Stuff).  However that offers enough of a tether that Nemesis can push further and Dominate the Nemfected's Spirit/Intellect.

[jonas]

Ill be honest, Ive long been leaning toward the idea that Id-Harry has simply been Lying and is not a natural part of Harry at all; rather I think he's a more insidious and/or intelligent (Outsider) version of the Hunger Demon that WCV's are born with.

I lean heavily toward the one who is all evil reflection being. It's how Satan was described for a long time, the inner devil or the thing that could take on your shape. It's classy cause most of those myths start to loosely become related to mirrors.(idk if you've ever seen Constantine but that's basically why he used the mirror on the demon in the beginning)
There's a whole cosmo/theo/mythological thing on it i'm only recently beginning to understand how it interconnects in the DF to other idea's like the shadow, the order of the mind itself, and the mind, body, will triangle.(if so limited)
If I were to do a mock up of a thread sooner or later would it be possible to get some feedback for questions or considerations needed looked at?