Future Darkhallow

[kazimmoinuddin]

What about potentially sacrificing/consuming spirits like elementals, nature based entities or even genus loci?

[Griffyn612]

Definitely possible. Immortals stealing bits and pieces of each other's mantle during Halloween is a good indicator that such a thing is possible. The fact that Hecate's power has been split into 6 and become the 6 queens of faeries are another example.

However, as far as we can tell, all those things are done via the power of another immortal. Only a fellow immortal can steal bits of an immortal's mantle during Halloween, and I doubt it is a mortal wizard who split Hecate's mantle into 6 and form the courts of the fae.

Not even Merlin could sacrifice and drain divine entities for power, otherwise he would have done it instead of imprisoning them at Demonreach.

So far, such a feat like sacrificing a god seem to be beyond the scope of human wizardry. Kemmler's ability to devour ghosts is already Heaven defying. for a human mortal, trying to devour a god is like an ant trying to eat an elephant in one bite.

Except the Darkhallow itself can steal the power of an immortal.  I think there are probably other methods as well.

As for Merlin... You are what you eat.  Methinks he wouldn't have wanted to be the things in the Well, so eating them wouldn't be an option.

[groinkick]

Except the Darkhallow itself can steal the power of an immortal.  I think there are probably other methods as well.

As for Merlin... You are what you eat.  Methinks he wouldn't have wanted to be the things in the Well, so eating them wouldn't be an option.

I wonder if you did it while in possession of the Blackstaff it would give you the power while filtering the negative influence?

[huangjimmy108]

Except the Darkhallow itself can steal the power of an immortal.  I think there are probably other methods as well.

As for Merlin... You are what you eat.  Methinks he wouldn't have wanted to be the things in the Well, so eating them wouldn't be an option.

A wizard who manage to ascent to immortality using the darkhallow most likely could steal powers from other immortals during Halloween, but the wizard have to ascend first before he can do that. The darkhallow itself cannot steal power from another immortal while the wizard casting it is still mortal.

In book 7 for example. The darkhallow could devour those ghosts and spirits summon by the Urlking and the wild hunt, but I doubt Urlking's personal power will be drained away by the darkhallow even if the casting is completed successfully. If the darkhallow can do that, it is a threat to the Urlking.  Urlking wont be so nice to those kemmlerites if that is the case. He would have attacked grevane and cowl instead of hosting the wild hunt.

[huangjimmy108]

What about potentially sacrificing/consuming spirits like elementals, nature based entities or even genus loci?

If you ask me, I am convinced it is possible. However, we have no confirmation about the viability of such a method. We know the darkhallow definitely could do it. We know being worshipped by many people for a long time could work as well, though we don't know the details as well as we know the darkhallow. Human sacrifice could work too. We saw the stone table as evidence.

Devouring gods? Devouring elementals and genus Loci? It is only a theory for now, though personally I believe it is possible. Looking at kemmler's way of duing things. A fire mage who wanted to ascend to fire god would first have to learn how to devour heat energy to empower his magic. Not wielding it or control it or shape it, but devouring fire magical energies to strengthen himself. The wizard almost have to be able to absorb energies like a freaking Dao cultivator.

[Griffyn612]

I wonder if you did it while in possession of the Blackstaff it would give you the power while filtering the negative influence?

I doubt it, but that's mostly because of my own preconceived notions on the Sidhe.  I think the stone table is their method of absorbing other deities' power through ritualistic sacrifice, but it has to be used carefully, because restrictions come along with that power (hence why the Sidhe are so bound by rules).

If they had a tool or method that got around that, then they'd have used it.

But I might be wrong, which makes my argument moot.

A wizard who manage to ascent to immortality using the darkhallow most likely could steal powers from other immortals during Halloween, but the wizard have to ascend first before he can do that. The darkhallow itself cannot steal power from another immortal while the wizard casting it is still mortal.

In book 7 for example. The darkhallow could devour those ghosts and spirits summon by the Urlking and the wild hunt, but I doubt Urlking's personal power will be drained away by the darkhallow even if the casting is completed successfully. If the darkhallow can do that, it is a threat to the Urlking.  Urlking wont be so nice to those kemmlerites if that is the case. He would have attacked grevane and cowl instead of hosting the wild hunt.

Actually, I believe there's WoJ that the Erlking would have died as well.  He was a target as well.  (Sorry, don't have time to go find it on the new site)

[Quantus]

I doubt it, but that's mostly because of my own preconceived notions on the Sidhe.  I think the stone table is their method of absorbing other deities' power through ritualistic sacrifice, but it has to be used carefully, because restrictions come along with that power (hence why the Sidhe are so bound by rules).

If they had a tool or method that got around that, then they'd have used it.

But I might be wrong, which makes my argument moot.

My understanding of the Stone Table is that it acts as a sort of a Filter to get them around the whole "You Are What You Eat" thing.  Normally, if you eat a bunch of Death you'd become a DeathGod, etc.  For example, we have WOJ that the Stone Table would have transferred the Energy of the Knight Mantle to the opposite court, as compared to trying to just take and Hold the mantle of the opposite Nature and/or hold both.


Also, I think it's worth keeping in mind that the Stone Table is the primary (or maybe just most efficient) method used by the Summer and Winter Courts, specifically.  The Wylde do things their own way(s); for example the Erlking apparently does it a bit more directly (Im assuming as part of his Hunt nature)

Actually, I believe there's WoJ that the Erlking would have died as well.  He was a target as well.  (Sorry, don't have time to go find it on the new site)

Im fairly confident that there is not, mostly because I recall arguing the opposite for quite some time.  But its possible I was arguing differing interpretations of some specific WOJ.  I maintained that by all accounts the Hunt (or at least the more physical part Thomas Joined) continued unimpeded through the night, and if the Erlking had been trapped in that spinning vortex and nearly eaten by Kemmlerites, his conversation with Harry afterward would have gone differently (or at least mentioned that Debt as part of his reasoning for letting Harry Live).  The Darkhallow was eating /Spirits/ not physical beings, and I strongly believe that any Fairy (from Erlking down to Toot and LED) have enough innate NN travel ability to step across and avoid the Magic Vacuum Fallout.  But I dont think we could find anything definitive. 

[Kindler]

My understanding of the Stone Table is that it acts as a sort of a Filter to get them around the whole "You Are What You Eat" thing.  Normally, if you eat a bunch of Death you'd become a DeathGod, etc.  For example, we have WOJ that the Stone Table would have transferred the Energy of the Knight Mantle to the opposite court, as compared to trying to just take and Hold the mantle of the opposite Nature and/or hold both.

I hadn't heard that before, but it makes sense to me. Does this mean that when, for example, Lloyd Slate was killed on the Stone Table, his Winter Knight's Mantle was transferred back to Winter and Mab as pure power, which Mab reshaped back into a Mantle? Or did it not do that because it was Winter Power going to Winter?

I maintained that by all accounts the Hunt (or at least the more physical part Thomas Joined) continued unimpeded through the night, and if the Erlking had been trapped in that spinning vortex and nearly eaten by Kemmlerites, his conversation with Harry afterward would have gone differently (or at least mentioned that Debt as part of his reasoning for letting Harry Live).  The Darkhallow was eating /Spirits/ not physical beings, and I strongly believe that any Fairy (from Erlking down to Toot and LED) have enough innate NN travel ability to step across and avoid the Magic Vacuum Fallout.  But I dont think we could find anything definitive.

For what it's worth, that was my reading as well; the Darkhallow was eating the spirits that were conjured up by the Wild Hunt's presence, not necessarily the Wild Hunt itself, as far as I could tell from the book. I think the Erlking being in danger may have been if he was caught in the backlash and subsequently consumed.

[Quantus]

I hadn't heard that before, but it makes sense to me. Does this mean that when, for example, Lloyd Slate was killed on the Stone Table, his Winter Knight's Mantle was transferred back to Winter and Mab as pure power, which Mab reshaped back into a Mantle? Or did it not do that because it was Winter Power going to Winter?

So, that's actually a point of some discussion.  By everything we learned about the Mantle during SK, the Stone Table should not have been required to pass the Knight Mantle; either court can make a new get a Knight all year long regardless of who's season it is to have the Table, and most Knights die in combat with their opposite rather than being sacrificed by their own Queen. IN SK they only needed the table to enact the Cross-Court transfer.

However, some have proposed that Mab used the Table to Purify the Power of the Winter Knight Mantle of any potential Nemfection, given how close Slate was working with both Maeve and Aurora.  If the theory holds, it would mean that she was protecting herself, she was sacrificing the Power back to Herself and re-forming the Mantle, like reinstalling the OS to clear out a computer Virus (or some more appropriate metaphor).

For what it's worth, that was my reading as well; the Darkhallow was eating the spirits that were conjured up by the Wild Hunt's presence, not necessarily the Wild Hunt itself, as far as I could tell from the book. I think the Erlking being in danger may have been if he was caught in the backlash and subsequently consumed.

This was the point that I ultimately had to concede: Fae are just as much beings of Life Energy as mortals, so they should be subject to the Life-Vacuum fallout.  Based on how the Guard are described to travel in back&forth across the NN boundary makes me think they'd be able to very easily avoid it, but the danger would not be truly Zero.

[Griffyn612]

2009 WoJ forum post:
5. cowl with darkhallow – really? just a bunch of spirits…
If he’d succeeded, he’d have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some.  He’d have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab.  I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual?  Because that’s how the big E got so boss in the first place. 

My interpretation of this is that a mortal completing the Darkhallow ritual with the Erlking present, or any other spirit trapped in the vortex, would absorb their power for themselves.

[groinkick]

I doubt it, but that's mostly because of my own preconceived notions on the Sidhe.  I think the stone table is their method of absorbing other deities' power through ritualistic sacrifice, but it has to be used carefully, because restrictions come along with that power (hence why the Sidhe are so bound by rules).

If they had a tool or method that got around that, then they'd have used it.

But I might be wrong, which makes my argument moot.
Actually, I believe there's WoJ that the Erlking would have died as well.  He was a target as well.  (Sorry, don't have time to go find it on the new site)

That's true about the Sidhe.  However the main difference is that Sidhe aren't mortal wizards.

[Griffyn612]

That's true about the Sidhe.  However the main difference is that Sidhe aren't mortal wizards.

But mortal wizards can become Sidhe.  How?  By bathing in their power.  For example, Molly can become a Sidhe Lady.  She plays the roll, she does the things, then she becomes that which she surrounds herself.  Ergo, mortal becoming immortal but being bound by the restrictions of the power they obtain.

[Kindler]

However, some have proposed that Mab used the Table to Purify the Power of the Winter Knight Mantle of any potential Nemfection, given how close Slate was working with both Maeve and Aurora.  If the theory holds, it would mean that she was protecting herself, she was sacrificing the Power back to Herself and re-forming the Mantle, like reinstalling the OS to clear out a computer Virus (or some more appropriate metaphor).

Could also be that she changed the Mantle itself instead of just restoring the factory settings. Maybe she wanted Harry to be a different kind of Knight than what she'd had in the past, and tweaked some of the subroutines. Everyone keeps remarking that All Winter Knights Are X-Y-Z, and Harry's persisted for a couple of years now without become a full-time psycho. Something's either different about Harry, or something's different about the Mantle, and that Stone Table transfer makes me suspicious.

[Lost Merlin]

When was the last time their was a winter knight who was also a wizard? has their ever been one? I think that my be a difference about why the Mantle hasn't changed Harry much.  Also you could argue that since he isn't using it as much it isn't affecting him nearly as much either. 

[Quantus]

When was the last time their was a winter knight who was also a wizard? has their ever been one? I think that my be a difference about why the Mantle hasn't changed Harry much.  Also you could argue that since he isn't using it as much it isn't affecting him nearly as much either.

Harry mentions that he is not sure if there's ever been a wizard Knight or not.  I strongly suspect there has been, if only because Mab Likes Powerful toys, though I doubt there's been a Soul fire-weilding Wizard-Knight before