TT Harry in Proven Guilty

[KurtinStGeorge]

OK, so some of us have chosen Harry as the most likely suspect to have fixed Little Chicago.  (I was never a big fan of this hypothesis until recently.) Of course I mean an older Harry who time travelled back to the past to do so.  Therefore it was TT Harry who hit and ran his younger self at the beginning of Proven Guilty in order to get his younger self out of the way for a while.  Before I continue I want to refer to best evidence that this hypothesis is the correct one.  From a conversation between Bob and Harry near the end of Proven Guilty about LC:

Bob - "No it isn't," Bob said. "Just really, really, really, really, really, really difficult. And unlikely. He would have had to know that you had a lab down here. And he would have had to know how to get around your wards."

Harry - "Plus intimate knowledge of the design to tinker with it like that," I said. "To say nothing of the fact that he would have to know it existed at all, and no one does."

Well, Thomas may have known, but his ability to do magic and understanding the nuts and bolts of how it works is limited.  So Bob may have been hinting it was a man who fixed Little Chicago and Harry's response strongly suggests he was the only man who fulfilled the requirements needed to do the job.

So if you accept that TT Harry fixed LC, that is all well and good, but what else did he do?  I mean you don't think an older Harry went through all the trouble it must have taken to travel back in time, and break one of the Laws of Magic, and then just head back home?  Recently, I re-watched an old episode of Deep Space Nine, "Trials and Tribble-ations" where Captain Sisco, Dax and company travel back to the Enterprise of Star Trek TOS. Specifically they go back into the episode "The Trouble with Tribbles."  It's was really, really well done, and it got me thinking about the mysteries of Proven Guilty and how TT Harry might fit in.  Here's part of a conversation between Harry and Ebenezer just a few paragraphs past the one above with Bob and Harry.

Harry- "I think we got played."

Eb - "By the Summer Lady?"

Harry - I shook my head. "I think Lily got suckered just as much as we did."

Eb - He frowned and rubbed at his head with one palm. "How so?"

Harry - "That's the part I can't figure," I said. "I think someone set Molly up to be a beacon for the fetches. And I'm damned sure that it was no accident that those fetches took Molly to Arctis Tor when it was so lightly defended. Someone wanted me there at Arctis Tor."

Ebenezar pursed his lips. "Who?"

"I think we got used by one of the Queens to one-up one of the others, somehow. But damned if I can figure out how."

OK, we know from a WOJ that Mab came out ahead after the events in PG, but during the novel she may have been stuck in her own realm, negotiating with the Black Council and defending her home, or at least holding down the fort in case a second attack came.  Harry and his party couldn't have made it to Arctis Tor if Lily hadn't given them some Summer protection, but the Winter Knight wouldn't have had any trouble with the cold.  So it's possible TT Harry may have gone to Arctis Tor and conspired with Mab in the events of PG.  The last sentence of the conversation between Eb and Harry probably refers to Maeve's manipulation of Lily, but perhaps more subtly it also points to Mab coming out on top in the game; possibly with the help of TT Harry.

Consider -  "Someone wanted me there at Arctis Tor."  Who fits that description better than a Harry himself?  I mean a future Harry who knows what would have happened happened if Molly didn't get help that she needed.  Following this logic it was TT Harry who set up Molly to be kidnapped by the fetches in order to save her.

That is as far as I have gotten.  I need to reread Proven Guilty to see if I can spot other places TT Harry might have intervened.  Of course, if this idea is correct then it is also possible TT Harry is at or near to many of the major events of PG, but doing his own thing; perhaps countering another time traveler as Sisko did in "Trials and Tribble-ations" or gathering more knowledge of the Black Council (or Outsider plans), or both.

For those of you who either came up with or have been on board with "TT Harry fixed LC" the longest, what else do you think TT Harry might have done and how do you think your ideas help explain the events in Proven Guilty?     

[Griffyn612]

In short, TTH hit himself in the car, plugged the phone back in to make sure he didn't miss Molly's call, fixed LC while Harry had Bob at the convention, cast the murk at the convention that actually seemed to slow the reaper down, led the defense of Arctis Tor, showed up at Molly's door as a "familiar face" and got the invite into the house while ordering the phages to take Molly to AT rather than kill her, and investigated the Sandra Marling angle.

Oh, and he accidently brought Maggie with as his side kick, and she left her Calvin & Hobbes book in his lab while he was using LC.

Among other things.  The wilder parts include TTH telling GK about the dark magic that triggers the warning to himself.

[raidem]

Awesome, is there anything left for me to add?

[KurtinStGeorge]

Not bad Griffyn612.

[Griffyn612]

In support of the "Harry accompanied the fetches to the Carpenters' house" theory, I offer the following:

     “These creatures, these phages. If they are
what you say, beings of the spirit world, then how
did they manage to cross the house’s threshold?”
     “Traditional way,” I said. “They got an
invitation.”
     “From whom?”
     “Probably Molly,” I said.
     He frowned. “I have difficulty believing that
she would do such a thing.”
     I felt my mouth tighten. “She probably didn’t
know they were monsters. They’re shapeshifters.
They probably appeared to her as someone she
knew, and would invite in.”
     Forthill said, “Ah. I see. Someone such as you,
perhaps.”
     “Perhaps,” I said quietly.

Or perhaps, remembering what was going to happen, and fearing the fetches would kill Molly rather than fetch her, Time-Travel Harry met them there and ordered them, as Winter Knight, to retrieve her and take her to Arctis Tor.  When Molly opened the door and invited him and his friends in, the fetches crossed the threshold.

Either that, or he ordered them to fetch her, and told them to use his face if necessary.

[Griffyn612]

A fleshed out list of things Time-travel Harry (TTH) did while avoiding Proven Guilty Harry (PGH)

• TTH hit PGH with the car to prevent him from using the defective Little Chicago.
• TTH fixed LC while PGH and Bob were at the convention.  (Or he fixed it while PGH was out and Bob was in, and ordered Bob not to tell PGH who did it)  He then used it to find something or someone.
• TTH plugged the phone back in (PGH thought he'd forgotten) to make sure PGH didn't miss Molly's call.
• TTH would be the one to let Mab in on Maeve being infected (although she may have known if Maeve helped attack AT). 
• TTH as WK was how Mab knew Harry'd become WK (although she technically said the "you'll kneel before me" thing in DB, she seems convinced he'll be her WK in SmF).
• Travelling in time while possessing the Warden mantle might cause the pre-ritual intellectus that Harry experienced in SmF.  The island recognized him as a Warden before he was due to the fact that he was the Warden (for a day or two) before SmF while traveling back to PG.
• GK didn't know about Molly or the dark magic, but TTH clued him in (consciously or unconsciously) which ensured the message was delivered.
• The Scarecrow's look of recognition upon seeing Harry in the parking lot for the first time was because he'd recently seen him as WK. (I think someone theorized that TTH might have actually *been* the Scarecrow the entire time, and he used the Mask to manipulate himself into firing upon the fountain.  Although I think that was shot down due to a WoJ on the Scarecrow being a long-time servant of Mab's)
• TTH cast the murk to slow down the Reaper phage at the convention, arriving before PGH and wrenching the door open with his WK strength.  He then fled after PGH beat the phage, and PGH saw him slipping out.
• TTH was the one to bring Mab's attention on Molly, with him slipping up and implying she was important down the line. (Although she might have already been on her radar due to Lea's "first born" offer in GP)
• TTH would travel back in time by merging the two times in one place, a la Merlin's Demonreach five-times-in-one trick, and that Demonreach would be the bridge used to go back.
• With Mab, Lea, and Slate all on ice, TTH would be the one to lead the defense of AT. 
• TTH accompanied the fetches to retrieve Molly (or at the minimum, ordered them to retrieve her but not kill her).
• Maggie accompanies TTH back, and leaves her C&H book in his lab (possibly while he's fixing LC).
• TTH figured out that Sandra Marling was suspicious and tracked her down.  As she disappeared, it likely didn't end well for her.
• Sandra Marling is actually Mavra, and TTH killed her (see the WoK theory below for why)

[li] ADDED: TTH and someone else were still in the frozen garden, hidden in plain sight as the frozen couple in Byzantine dress while they waited for events to play out.
[/li][/list]

Possible reasons for going back

• A bad guy goes back in time, and TTH has to go back to stop them from doing something different that will break things.
• Harry goes back for a piece of information that was only known by someone alive at that time, but who's now dead or doesn't remember. Candidates are Maeve, infected Lea, or a dead-in-the-future Mab.
• Harry needs to use Little Chicago to find something/someone, but as it doesn't exist in the future, he goes back to use it.
• Harry needs the Word of Kemmler.  Mab cryptically tells him that the last time she saw it was just after the battle of Arctis Tor.  He goes back, finds out that Sandra Marling was actually Mavra, and he kills her (she's been dead all this time and he didn't know it!) and claims the book for himself.  When Mab "last saw it", it was with TTH as he went back to the future. (This pretty much requires the Sandra=Mavra theory to be accurate)

Personally I favor the last one (WoK theory) because it gives Harry a reason to go back to that time period.  Interrogating infected-Lea seems like a good second choice, but it could also be a sub-plot of the main one.

[raidem]

I'm going to add the importance of Murphy to pg.  Harry's car getting hit brought Murphy into the mix.  When charity prays for heaven's help after the baby hair doesn't work, Murphy arrives and suggests tracking Molly by charitys blood.

Murphy has access to Harry's apartment and can bypass the wards.
She knows about the lab.

Murphy involvement coincides with your points on mavens being involved and the Word in play.  It was during Murphy's vacation that the Word/mavra plot played out. And it was Murphy that was the ultimate target of the blackmail.

And Murphy goes to arctic tor.

I'd say let's not completely dismiss some Mab=Murphy angle, where there is a empowered Murphy following Harry around.

[exartiem]

I actually think it was Mab who fixed LC.  She can drive a car or have someone do it.  She would have access through Lea's garden.  She is able to create incredibly complex schemes days and weeks in advance.  And, as it has been said, she came out on top in the whole matter.  Who knows how long she was trapped in the ice, or if that really completely incapacitated her?

[Snark Knight]

In support of the "Harry accompanied the fetches to the Carpenters' house" theory, I offer the following:
Or perhaps, remembering what was going to happen, and fearing the fetches would kill Molly rather than fetch her, Time-Travel Harry met them there and ordered them, as Winter Knight, to retrieve her and take her to Arctis Tor.  When Molly opened the door and invited him and his friends in, the fetches crossed the threshold.
Either that, or he ordered them to fetch her, and told them to use his face if necessary.

That they got an invitation through the threshold was Harry's speculation. There's a WOJ to the effect that he's mistaken.

The fetches in PG hammered down the /Carpenters’/ front door, and that’s a threshold like the rock of frickin’ Gibraltar.

http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/

However, this particular WOJ was from well before Cold Days got published. Putting this under the lens of hindsight, I don't think this means they were just that beastly strong. I think it means they were able to hammer through the door because they were N-fected, and it freed them entirely from the usual requirement to respect a threshold.

Perhaps Maeve was hoping if Harry chased them back to Molly he'd choose to free dearly beloved Godmother Lea, or perhaps that something he saw at Arctis Tor would help sell her story that Mab had gone crazy.

[Griffyn612]

That they got an invitation through the threshold was Harry's speculation. There's a WOJ to the effect that he's mistaken.http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/

However, this particular WOJ was from well before Cold Days got published. Putting this under the lens of hindsight, I don't think this means they were just that beastly strong. I think it means they were able to hammer through the door because they were N-fected, and it freed them entirely from the usual requirement to respect a threshold.

Perhaps Maeve was hoping if Harry chased them back to Molly he'd choose to free dearly beloved Godmother Lea, or perhaps that something he saw at Arctis Tor would help sell her story that Mab had gone crazy.

I'm sure that's what Maeve intended, if it was her idea.  But we still don't know who was behind that, as it could have been Maeve or Mab or TTH.

Scarecrow being infected would explain the hammering of the door, would explain the intelligence and recognition in Scarecrow's eyes, and would explain how Harry's magic didn't effect him (although the fear revelation later did that too).

But I'm (currently) kind of hoping that TTH was Scarecrow.  I know it's not the case, but imagining it was TTH killing Glau for hitting Mouse with the van is cool.  Not to mention TTH somehow knowing how to avoid his own spell, getting Molly to open her door for him, and positioning himself so that PGH would blast the fountain all seems cool.

[Kindler]

I think Bonnie came with him. She hasn't graduated to trashy romance novels yet; she's still on comics. And she would've been able to help Harry remember what the specific flaws were.

[Snark Knight]

He goes back, finds out that Sandra Marling was actually Mavra, and he kills her (she's been dead all this time and he didn't know it!) and claims the book for himself.  When Mab "last saw it", it was with TTH as he went back to the future. (This pretty much requires the Sandra=Mavra theory to be accurate)

Is there a lot going for that theory? I have higher hopes for Mavra's long game than a reveal that Harry went back in time and killed her so shortly after she disappeared with the book. Plus if she wanted Molly to go warlock, I don't see why she wouldn't just turn her and train her as a sorcerous vampire.

[jonas]

I'd prefer Ms. Marling to be a very bad disguise for a fae element of the Fomor court. It smacks of that same Fae identity joke as Ms. Sumerset(.... WAS it Mrs.?)

[WereElephant]

Personally I favor the last one (WoK theory) because it gives Harry a reason to go back to that time period.  Interrogating infected-Lea seems like a good second choice, but it could also be a sub-plot of the main one.

Don't think he needs the Word anymore. He mentioned before that he already knows how to perform the Darkhallow. If Lash's memories are either still in his memories or were transferred to Bonnie (for whom I think Minerva or Minnie would be a much better name), he wouldn't need to go back for any smaller details either. I like the usage of Little Chicago or time traveling baddie theories better.

[Griffyn612]

Is there a lot going for that theory? I have higher hopes for Mavra's long game than a reveal that Harry went back in time and killed her so shortly after she disappeared with the book. Plus if she wanted Molly to go warlock, I don't see why she wouldn't just turn her and train her as a sorcerous vampire.

No.  Nothing to support it. Only Mavra's absence.

Don't think he needs the Word anymore. He mentioned before that he already knows how to perform the Darkhallow. If Lash's memories are either still in his memories or were transferred to Bonnie (for whom I think Minerva or Minnie would be a much better name), he wouldn't need to go back for any smaller details either. I like the usage of Little Chicago or time traveling baddie theories better.

I doubt Bonnie's going to be helpful, and I doubt he remembers the Word verbatim on his own.  But it's possible.