TT Harry in Proven Guilty

[raidem]

I think the five things at once can be explained by a hive mind that spans across time and parallel realities.  He needs to be able to coordinate things precisely. As long as Merlin is able to reach this simultaneous check, then either mine or the modified one works.

This may be a tie into something like idharry.  If idharry is a reflection of a starborn power that allows Harry "no master where you go, there you are", then Harry could connect to his alter selves.

In a similar fashion, Merlin (if he was a starborn) could do something similar.  Now if the Idharry/idmerlin isn't restricted to starborn but some wizard power the same can be true.

We still don't know if Merlin only used one timeline/reality to create demonreach. With parallel realities we get more options.

[WereElephant]

Except he did all five at once.  What you propose would be five builds at five different times.

Point. Rethinking.

[Griffyn612]

Point. Rethinking.

The only way it'd work is what raidem is suggesting.  That five Merlins became linked as one.  Then the could either travel to five times in the same universe and complete the rituals once in tandem with one mind, with everything identical.  Or they could link and travel to five different times in five different universes (Bob did say it could be more than just 4 dimensions) in tandem with one mind, with everything identical.

I find either less plausible than time putty, but people don't seem to find time putty particularly plausible either, so that seems fair.

[raidem]

If you restrict yourself to one parallel reality, then you are making 5 stable time loops coinciding with Demonreach's creation all within that reality.  I mean we have enough problems with one stable timeloop.  To add 4 more is just adding trouble, which is why I think Demonreach's creation needs to get distributed among several parallel realities.

Also the hivemind/simultaneous aspect can be what a Grace bestowed on Merlin could facilitate. Though there may be other options that can be used short of a Grace/Mantle.

[Griffyn612]

If you restrict yourself to one parallel reality, then you are making 5 stable time loops coinciding with Demonreach's creation all within that reality.  I mean we have enough problems with one stable timeloop.  To add 4 more is just adding trouble, which is why I think Demonreach's creation needs to get distributed among several parallel realities.

Also the hivemind/simultaneous aspect can be what a Grace bestowed on Merlin could facilitate. Though there may be other options that can be used short of a Grace/Mantle.

That's why I think an angelic Grace is involved.  A non-linear being would have to be involved for five times simultaneously.

But no matter what way you slice it, you're making five bridges.  You're either combining five times with one guy, or making five mental bridges across time, or five bridges across time and universes.

[jonas]

It's likely 5 slightly alternative versions of Merlin banded together and made it, linking the 5 timelines in one existence of intertwined history... this is likely why there are various versions of people who resemble Dresden in this one existence, each is actually from a slightly different existence that changed how they were personified by belief into different mythological figures, but share a quasi-fluid history. This could also be why the timeline fluctuations in the DF are wrote through Harry's end perspective, his memories are mushed together of different timelines... this also implies the Mandela effect is by and large responsible for our mythology such as it is from now 'memetic/dream' perspective.

[raidem]

I favor the 5 different merlins cooperating theory.

[jonas]

I mean imagine since the DF is a multiverse, when all the different versions went backward they gradually went up the flow of time itself until there were no other variant choice universes, they made DR in the beginning and it split off from there in a stable loop that produced five universes were merlin went back in time and made DR, and all 5 did so at the same time, coming in from different times.

[groinkick]

What I want to know is what five time periods?  What makes those points in time important?  I mean was it one year apart for each one?  100 years?  Specific dates based on star charts?  Will we ever know?  Maybe they align with each time a Starborn can be born?  Halloween?  Would one of the points actually have been in the future, and not just 5 points in the past?

If Merlin actually pulled this off on his own I have to believe he took up a seriously powerful Mantle...  Say from Cronos who was supposed to be the god of time.  If that's the case he may have been elevated to some distant place in the nevernever, and that's why nobody knows what happened to him.  Or maybe he runs around with an eye patch and is known to be jolly.

[Griffyn612]

It's likely 5 slightly alternative versions of Merlin banded together and made it, linking the 5 timelines in one existence of intertwined history... this is likely why there are various versions of people who resemble Dresden in this one existence, each is actually from a slightly different existence that changed how they were personified by belief into different mythological figures, but share a quasi-fluid history. This could also be why the timeline fluctuations in the DF are wrote through Harry's end perspective, his memories are mushed together of different timelines... this also implies the Mandela effect is by and large responsible for our mythology such as it is from now 'memetic/dream' perspective.

The biggest issue I have with five Merlins in five universes at five times theory is that it makes Demonreach five times as vulnerable.

If it was created in one timeline, then it has to be unmade in that timeline.  But if it was made in five, then a successful attack on any of the others would destroy it.  That's five times as much trouble.

Five Merlins coming to make it in one timeline would at least avoid that.

[jonas]

The biggest issue I have with five Merlins in five universes at five times theory is that it makes Demonreach five times as vulnerable.

If it was created in one timeline, then it has to be unmade in that timeline.  But if it was made in five, then a successful attack on any of the others would destroy it.  That's five times as much trouble.

Five Merlins coming to make it in one timeline would at least avoid that.

Huge problem there... how would 5 merlins enter any one timeline without causing splinter universes by the action itself? The end result would be just as troublesome as they cascade outward. instead of twisting time together they'd fray it's continuing linearity.
See, I see it opposite, making it five times at the same time actually makes it harder to trouble with, as you must attack it simultaneously from all five in order to destabilize it's resonance. Hence I think why the attack HAD to come across time. It had to break time barriers in order to effect something that had already done so... if that makes any sense, if not let me know lol.
*would they not have to destroy the possibility of Merlin making the trip at all in order to negate any one timeline were he does so? probability combined with conservation of history, perhaps they change slightly with attacks upon their timelines but a new version still comes to a head of it?

[Griffyn612]

Huge problem there... how would 5 merlins enter any one timeline without causing splinter universes by the action itself? The end result would be just as troublesome as they cascade outward. instead of twisting time together they'd fray it's continuing linearity.
See, I see it opposite, making it five times at the same time actually makes it harder to trouble with, as you must attack it simultaneously from all five in order to destabilize it's resonance. Hence I think why the attack HAD to come across time. It had to break time barriers in order to effect something that had already done so... if that makes any sense, if not let me know lol.
*would they not have to destroy the possibility of Merlin making the trip at all in order to negate any one timeline were he does so? probability combined with conservation of history, perhaps they change slightly with attacks upon their timelines but a new version still comes to a head of it?

I'm not sure why you think five Merlins coming together in one timeline would cause issues.  We're talking (or at least I am) about five stable splinterverses, each with their own Merlin.  And those Merlins coming together to visit one timeline and working together to make Demonreach.  They'd still have to make additional trips to the past/future of that timeline to make it five times there.

[jonas]

I'm not sure why you think five Merlins coming together in one timeline would cause issues.  We're talking (or at least I am) about five stable splinterverses, each with their own Merlin.  And those Merlins coming together to visit one timeline and working together to make Demonreach.  They'd still have to make additional trips to the past/future of that timeline to make it five times there.

Due to the complexity of the answer i'm going to forgo it in favor of asking about this,(I mean, just paradox issues alone, how would their existence be stable, and why would they go to one timeline when... er, nvm, for now lol) How do you separate 5 times at the same time into the statement of five times throughout time or in five timelines? It's not an interpretation I see easily.
I'm thinking, and I think we will see a smaller version of this in MM when someone has to fix the timeline issues, that DR is basically a bow tying together multiple existences, if not at the beginning tying all of existence together around 5 central 'root/trunk' universes(in keeping with the parallels of DR to Yggdrasil.

[groinkick]

The Never Never moves differently time wise.  Hades for example slowed it way down.  The prisoners are also held in a place where there are roots that are much too deep to be from tree's...  Perhaps the 5 different times at the same time were 5 different places within the Never Never where time is moving differently from one another.

[jonas]

The Never Never moves differently time wise.  Hades for example slowed it way down.  The prisoners are also held in a place where there are roots that are much too deep to be from tree's...  Perhaps the 5 different times at the same time were 5 different places within the Never Never where time is moving differently from one another.

No, no. Merlin Made DR in our reality specifically. NN time isn't the issue, it's true time as seen by mortal linearity. An i'm not sure the actual passage of time would be important than, just that the precise 'time' is co-aligned in each different area to be at the same time from whichever standard time can then be measured from... the stars themselves perhaps?