I love you

[Lost Merlin]

Im pretty sure we saw exactly that happening at the end of CD, and there werre bigger problems with it than just a lack of faith or fear of the Mantle; it nearly very drove him savagely insane.

I also think that was him doing the Harry thing of, 'I have an Idea how to do this let me slam a lot of power in to something to try and get it to work right.'   Basically he dove really deep and had the expectation that he would need to give in to his baser desires to draw on that power.  With time and understanding he will be able to lean on the Mantle more without having as many side effects.  I think we saw proof of that in SG when battling the Coined Sasquatch [or whatever it was].  Winter Knight at the end of CD will not be the same Winter Knight at the beginning of PT. He has had more time to learn and refine what Mab has given him. 

[Quantus]

I also think that was him doing the Harry thing of, 'I have an Idea how to do this let me slam a lot of power in to something to try and get it to work right.'   Basically he dove really deep and had the expectation that he would need to give in to his baser desires to draw on that power.  With time and understanding he will be able to lean on the Mantle more without having as many side effects.  I think we saw proof of that in SG when battling the Coined Sasquatch [or whatever it was].  Winter Knight at the end of CD will not be the same Winter Knight at the beginning of PT. He has had more time to learn and refine what Mab has given him.

Well, side note but I personally think the key to the Mantle is that Mab did NOT give it to Harry, she gave it to Id-Harry (hence the Snowflake Badge) and so all the base urges and desires are not from Winter, they are from his own inner self that has been empowered by Winter and given a much louder voice.  Makes sense to me that Mab would be able to sense/interact with him, and find him a more understanding/accepting (to her POV) collaborator

[Lost Merlin]

Well, side note but I personally think the key to the Mantle is that Mab did NOT give it to Harry, she gave it to Id-Harry (hence the Snowflake Badge) and so all the base urges and desires are not from Winter, they are from his own inner self that has been empowered by Winter and given a much louder voice.  Makes sense to me that Mab would be able to sense/interact with him, and find him a more understanding/accepting (to her POV) collaborator

Interesting theory.  Then wouldn't Harry not have access to it since it was given to a different part of him, or would he only have access when getting in touch with his id?  if that is the case then the growth we have seen to Harry in CD and SG are all on Harry's Maturation, Mab's Training, and knowledge passed on from his ID?

Sorry if you have argued on laid this all out before but I come and go on here. 

[raidem]

Thanks to ZQKing on Discord

HARRY DID SAY "LOVE YOU, TOO" TO KARRIN:

Murphy turned to me. She reached up with both hands, put them on the sides of my head, and pulled me down a little. Then she kissed my forehead and my mouth, neither quickly nor with passion. Then she let me go and looked up at me, her eyes worried and calm. "You know that I love you, Harry. You're a good man. A good friend."
I gave her a lopsided smile. "Don't go all gushy on me, Murph."
She shook her head. "I'm serious. Don't get yourself killed. Kick whatsoever ass you need to in order to make that happen." She looked down. "My world would be a scarier place without you in it."
I chewed my lip for a second, feeling very awkward. Then I said, "I'd rather have you covering my back than anyone in the world, Karrin." I cleared my throat. "You might be the best friend I've ever had."
She blinked quickly several times and shook her head. "Okay. This is going somewhere awkward."
"Maybe we should take it from ‘whatsoever ass,' " I suggested.
She nodded. "Find him. Kick his ass."
"That is the plan," I confirmed. Then I bent down and kissed her forehead and her mouth, gently, and leaned my forehead against hers. "Love you, too," I whispered.(edited)

The "I love you" problem with Murphy has been averted

[Quantus]

Interesting theory.  Then wouldn't Harry not have access to it since it was given to a different part of him, or would he only have access when getting in touch with his id?  if that is the case then the growth we have seen to Harry in CD and SG are all on Harry's Maturation, Mab's Training, and knowledge passed on from his ID?

Sorry if you have argued on laid this all out before but I come and go on here. 

No worries, I dont know that Ive covered it recently.  The two big clues for me are 1) the Snowflake badge that Id-Harry was wearing in SG and 2) the fact that Harry is able to suppress the Mantle specifically by asserting his rational mind over his emotional sub-conscious, via that counting ritual he does.  Winter IS the Rational, ultimately so.  It doesnt make sense that one of Winter's defining characteristics would be used to suppressing it's influence; if anything Id have expected Winter to make harry Colder and more Logical and Rational and /less/ emotional. But if he is suppressing his own Id by giving focus to his Conscious, Rational mind, it would fit. 

[LordDresden2]

I think if Harry heavily drew upon and merged more fully with the mantle he'd get get access to the winter laws.  He still would have free will but he needs to get over the fear of the mantle and have faith in himself.

Actually, I think his fear of that Mantle is very, very well-founded.  The more he opens himself to it, the more access to his operating system the mantle's software has, to use a computer analogy.  I use the software analogy for a reason.

Remember what the mantles do.  Over time, they try to overwrite the operating system of the host with the 'Summer/Winter/Whatever' operating system.  Uriel told Harry that the Fae can't make him change...but if he opens himself too much to the mantle, that might be more or less giving permission for it to change him.

[LordDresden2]

Well, side note but I personally think the key to the Mantle is that Mab did NOT give it to Harry, she gave it to Id-Harry (hence the Snowflake Badge) and so all the base urges and desires are not from Winter, they are from his own inner self that has been empowered by Winter and given a much louder voice.  Makes sense to me that Mab would be able to sense/interact with him, and find him a more understanding/accepting (to her POV) collaborator

I tend to doubt that would be possible.  Id-Harry is just Harry talking to himself, one side of him talking to another.  I don't think Mab could give the mantle to just id-Harry any more than she could give it to just his left arm and not his right arm.

As for the dark impulses coming from Harry, I'm sure that's the case.  The Winter Mantle brings out the host's 'wintery' impulses, ramps them up and amplifies them, but they don't come from nowhere.  I think that's how it works with any host.  A host who somehow lacked any 'wintery' urges at all, zero presence, probably would be unaffected by it, but he probably also couldn't be the Winter Knight in the first place.

[Quantus]

I tend to doubt that would be possible.  Id-Harry is just Harry talking to himself, one side of him talking to another.  I don't think Mab could give the mantle to just id-Harry any more than she could give it to just his left arm and not his right arm.

I can.  Any time the Right Arm can have an argument with the Left Arm, anyway.  It might be all in his head in the way 9to use a marvel comparison) each personality of Legion has a different Superpower.  But he's sat down and had several face-to-face conversations with Id-Harry, so whatever the nature of their relationship may turn out to be (Im a fan of the natural-born Outsider Symbiote that is what makes a Starborn Theory) they have discrete identities. 

[raidem]

After reading Amber series and understanding what out can mean, I'm more inclined to accept that out isn't just the bad outsiders.  There are also good ones too.

The out theory would be s metaverse beyond even our own but attached to it where there is a war between chaos and order. Our bad outsiders may align with this chaos group or be something even antithetical to this traverse as well.  In any event, Mac would be an original being from this traverse, this out that then came to our own.

I'm liking the outside symbiote theory, or at least an ability that allows one to consult a hive mind of Harry's.

[Snark Knight]

Think of the ramifications of making that choice.  It would have poisoned Harry's friendship with Michael, but only after Harry discovered the truth of what he had done. Thomas had information on where Susan and Justine had been taken.  So without that knowledge to go on Susan would have been turned and Justine would have died.  Harry would have realized he had made a mistake; and I think Michael too, if they had killed Thomas and then found out he had brought Amorachius to them.

While I think the three words to Susan is a more probable direction for Jim to write the diverging timelines from, I really like the narrative implications that could come out of MM-Harry allowing Michael to kill Thomas. The realization that the nightmare was Kravos' ghost came really close to that scene, so if he hadn't found out Justine and Susan were still alive and rushed off to save them from Bianca, Harry probably would have gone to Bob asking 'how do I beat a ghost?' questions. Cue that line of questioning unlocking Evil Bob, and a left turn into learning Kemmler's techniques from him.

And further down the line, of course, think what Nicodemus could do with "You realize, Dresden, that the vampire your friend Michael killed was Maggie's first son?" in making his pitch in DM that the Knights are not so good after all.

[Mira]

Maybe..  Or deciding to leave the party with Susan, and leaving Michael to die, and one of the Swords to be destroyed.  Harry tossed the idea around in his head before he decided to back Michael.  He was given the choice.  Who is your guest?  Michael, or Susan?  If he chose Susan he could have walked right out.  He chose to stay, fight, and lose Susan (basically), and start a war.  Or he could have left with Susan, and a KoTC would have been slain, Excalibur destroyed, the Red Court war would have been postponed.. 

Personally at the moment I'm leaning towards Harry leaving with Susan.

Kill the boy and let the man be born.... 

[Quantus]

I find myself trying to rewind Harry's character back to GP and see where he might have gone slightly Off the Rails we know.  I find myself coming back to the Tombstone...It would take only a very small nudge to have put him in his more stubborn and contrary mode.   I could see him, backed into a corner and seeing "He died doing the Right Thing" and going "You Think So??  Dont You Fucking Tell ME what Im going to do!" followed by something at least as haunting as the Pyro-fuego moment where he's not sure he didnt kill mortals.