Author Topic: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?  (Read 21454 times)

Offline Quantus

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2018, 04:31:48 PM »
How dare you?!?! Sam Raimi has an unimpeachable record! (/joking)
Dont get me wrong, I have High Hopes for his KingKiller Chronicles

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Shannara was a really, really important book series for me. I read it during a particularly formative period, when I was first articulating myself as a writer, so what they've done to the series is a huge sore spot. I hate everything about it (though I agree Allanon was cast perfectly fine, I just hate the direction they took the character).
Im looking at it more like a comic book adaptation, trying to enjoy it in it's own right and viewing any book elements more as cool cameo's and call-outs, rather than being perpetually disappointed by it's far-ranging deviation. 

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My argument against Codex being a series is that you will inevitably have to stretch it to fill each season. You will have filler, and I do not have confidence that it can be as good as the books. It's the opposite problem that film adaptations have (which is that they cut too much). I don't want a series about Tavi going to the Academy and learning that it sucks to not have furies while he makes unlikely friends like Max (for example). There's a reason that all of that stuff happened in the years between the books.
I really dont think this would be a problem these days, as odds are what they like to call a "season" these days is only going to be 8-12 episodes, rather than the 20-24 of days past. 


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Maybe there can be a medium between the two; limited series developed by Netflix or HBO or something, that can take however long is appropriate without overstuffing an already full concept with frivolous stuff.
This would be my hope: one Netflix "Part" per book, which are consistent enough in length to all fit similar allotments of screen-time.

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Hell, maybe get some indie developer like Rooster Teeth, which has shockingly high production value, and make it into a web series—all of their ongoing productions flow well enough that you can watch them as a movie. I'd even be fine with them animating it; they've proven they know what they're doing. Though I guess they'd be accused of overlapping too much, as there are enough similarities between Codex Alera and RWBY.
I have Doubts it would be what WE'd all hope (RIP, Monty  :'()

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Anyway, I just want there to be good, high production value adaptations. I think it'd be best served as a set of movies. If the meat isn't cut, I won't argue about the fat; I don't want another Harry Potter fiasco, which, in my opinion, should be an example of how not to faithfully adapt a story.
I agree with the sentiment, I just dont think the feature-length movies are the best way to go, for two reasons: 1) they have the most history of trying to change the core story that we loved in attempts to make it appeal to broader movie-going audiences, which usually ruins what made the story popular in the first place, and 2) Feature length films, even franchises, will always try their to cram a complete story into a single volume, meaning no single book is ever going to get more than 2-3 hours all in, whereas even a short mini-series or well-funded (GoT or Netflix style) show has the freedom to spend 8-12 hours without being beholden to the 2-hour story rhythm a feature needs. 

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Peter Jackson did it right. He didn't lose much aside from Tom, and didn't mess up much aside from Faramir.
Lets just pretend the Hobbit never happened so that I can agree with you  :P
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2018, 06:03:21 PM »
Dont get me wrong, I have High Hopes for his KingKiller Chronicles
I just don't want it to take away from Ash vs. Evil Dead.
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Im looking at it more like a comic book adaptation, trying to enjoy it in it's own right and viewing any book elements more as cool cameo's and call-outs, rather than being perpetually disappointed by it's far-ranging deviation. 
I don't judge taste in media; like what you like. After half a season, I was just angry. I can deal with deviations and such, but not when it's bad deviation, if you catch my meaning. For example, what was done to Fred and George in the Harry Potter movies. Order of the Phoenix should have been their character climaxes. I'm not fan of JK Rowling's writing style by any means, but I'll be damned if they didn't have one of the most satisfying departures from the main story I've ever read. And the movie relegated that to about half a scene. That's the kind of thing I want to avoid; halfhearted attempts to adapt things that are there, but failing miserably to do so in a way that is remotely satisfying, and only vaguely resembles the skeleton of the source material.

Imagine the final duel of Furies of Calderon, on the battlements, and imagine it being done in less than a minute, with no buildup or drama. Technically it's present, but it's just... empty. That's my fear of any adaptation attempt.

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I really dont think this would be a problem these days, as odds are what they like to call a "season" these days is only going to be 8-12 episodes, rather than the 20-24 of days past. 
Maybe. I only have previous examples to point to. Game of Thrones is done pretty well, but even that feels bloated with 13 episode-seasons. I liked last season's shorter approach, because it felt like things were actually happening in each installment, rather than once every few episodes an Important Thing happens.

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This would be my hope: one Netflix "Part" per book, which are consistent enough in length to all fit similar allotments of screen-time.
Dare to dream.
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I have Doubts it would be what WE'd all hope (RIP, Monty  :'()
Monty was and is irreplaceable, but the rest of the team grew and adapted. Fights lack the insane complexity of the Project Freelancer setpieces, but they're perfectly as they are now. I don't know if you've seen the latest season of RWBY, but some of those fights restored my confidence, particularly in the last few episodes. Still, I can only dream about what Monty Oum would have done with a pair of metalcrafters dueling for several minutes. There simply can be no substitute.

Regardless, I think Rooster Teeth would be able to do a really good job overall, and I'd be pumped to see what they did with pitched battles, which isn't something they've ever done before. So long as they didn't take art direction from 300, it'd probably be great.
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I agree with the sentiment, I just dont think the feature-length movies are the best way to go, for two reasons: 1) they have the most history of trying to change the core story that we loved in attempts to make it appeal to broader movie-going audiences, which usually ruins what made the story popular in the first place, and 2) Feature length films, even franchises, will always try their to cram a complete story into a single volume, meaning no single book is ever going to get more than 2-3 hours all in, whereas even a short mini-series or well-funded (GoT or Netflix style) show has the freedom to spend 8-12 hours without being beholden to the 2-hour story rhythm a feature needs. 
Yeah, dumbing things down to appeal to a broad audience is a danger.

I'd honestly be most afraid of them turning the Canim into dumb beastmen. It'd be a horrible mistake, but I can see some executive going, "But they're big and furry. Audiences don't want clever beast enemies, they want something to hate so they feel smarter."

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Lets just pretend the Hobbit never happened so that I can agree with you  :P
I don't count the Hobbit trilogy; I'm just talking about the Lord of the Rings. So yes, we agree :).

Offline Talby16

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2018, 08:14:10 PM »
I'd honestly be most afraid of them turning the Canim into dumb beastmen. It'd be a horrible mistake, but I can see some executive going, "But they're big and furry. Audiences don't want clever beast enemies, they want something to hate so they feel smarter."
The Canim culture is one of my favorite things about the Codex Alera series. Cursor's fury is my favorite book due to the battle between the Canim and First Aleran. I want to see Varg in all his glory!

Offline Kindler

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2018, 08:19:25 PM »
The Canim culture is one of my favorite things about the Codex Alera series. Cursor's fury is my favorite book due to the battle between the Canim and First Aleran. I want to see Varg in all his glory!

It's one of the reasons I like the series so much; Tavi's rise in popularity and power felt earned, especially after Cursor's Fury. I've read a few books where the power creep and character shilling was just annoying, because it didn't feel warranted in the context of the story. Ditto Dresden; Harry's earned his Terror Hero reputation.

Offline Foxed

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2018, 11:36:07 PM »
I still think that with minor changes you could group three books into a season and get a decent season every time:

Season 1 (StF, FM, GP) - Insert Bianca into Fool Moon and you got a big bad.

Season 2 (SK, DM, BR) - Insert Thomas into Summer Knight and you have a Thomas season.

Season 3 (DB, PG, WN) Add Cowl into Harry's PTSD in Proven Guilty and call it a day.

Season 4 (SmF, TC, Changes) - Thread Peabody into Small Favor and call it a day. You've earned it. Plus, Changes makes a hell of a finale.

Season 5 (GS, CD, SG) - Pretty solid through line that puts Harry back together by the end of the season. Mostly.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2018, 01:08:33 AM »
I like Foxed's plan.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2018, 01:50:52 PM »
Monty was and is irreplaceable, but the rest of the team grew and adapted. Fights lack the insane complexity of the Project Freelancer setpieces, but they're perfectly as they are now. I don't know if you've seen the latest season of RWBY, but some of those fights restored my confidence, particularly in the last few episodes. Still, I can only dream about what Monty Oum would have done with a pair of metalcrafters dueling for several minutes. There simply can be no substitute.

Regardless, I think Rooster Teeth would be able to do a really good job overall, and I'd be pumped to see what they did with pitched battles, which isn't something they've ever done before. So long as they didn't take art direction from 300, it'd probably be great.
Im a big fan of RvB, but I never was able to get into RWBY, something about the faces and way they moved outside of the awesome combat scenes hit me too hard in the Uncanny Valley to really give it the chance it deserved (and Im a massive anime fan so it's not just the BESM style).  But that's really my only hesitance with Rooster Teeth: while they've proven capable action animators they arent the best when it comes to original art assets or design or conveying subtle human emotion and facial movement and whatnot. 

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Yeah, dumbing things down to appeal to a broad audience is a danger.

I'd honestly be most afraid of them turning the Canim into dumb beastmen. It'd be a horrible mistake, but I can see some executive going, "But they're big and furry. Audiences don't want clever beast enemies, they want something to hate so they feel smarter."
I dont think that will be a problem because they'll have too much fun with their Werewolf Samurai culture. 
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2018, 02:31:25 PM »
I still think that with minor changes you could group three books into a season and get a decent season every time:
How long are you picturing these seasons?  If possible wouldnt want to give any book less that maybe 4 episodes worth of screen-time (ie 3 full hours)

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Season 1 (StF, FM, GP) - Insert Bianca into Fool Moon and you got a big bad.

Season 2 (SK, DM, BR) - Insert Thomas into Summer Knight and you have a Thomas season.
Id call Thomas a guest start for the first season, but I think you'd really need him and Justine at Bianca's ball if you are going to have DM and BR make sense.  Personally I wouldnt mind it if he disappeared for the SK arc and resurface with Ortega and the vampire subplot. 
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Season 3 (DB, PG, WN) Add Cowl into Harry's PTSD in Proven Guilty and call it a day.

Season 4 (SmF, TC, Changes) - Thread Peabody into Small Favor and call it a day. You've earned it. Plus, Changes makes a hell of a finale.
Id say no need to involved Peabody in SmF if he was on-screen at the SK Council Meeting and maybe one or both PG Trial.

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Season 5 (GS, CD, SG) - Pretty solid through line that puts Harry back together by the end of the season. Mostly.
The only (potential) issue I see here is that Jim's long said he viewed Changes, Ghost Story and Cold Days as a sort of Mini-trilogy.  Plus Id be kinda sad to see Morgans death relegated to a mid-season beat.  I think it TC be a great finale on it's own, and if they are mean they end it with an after-credits cliffhanger of "I an­swered the phone, and Su­san Ro­driguez said, “They’ve tak­en our daugh­ter.”"  Then you get a full season devoted to Harry's Parethood lessons, and by then SG will likely make more sense grouped with Peace Talks as they take the last-season Gates Reveal and swing the focus back to the global threats. 


Also, I would very much enjoy them sprinkling the Short Stories in there as well, which IMO would help since my preferred schedule would slow down around DB where the Shorts began.  For example, I would want Heorot before SmF, Something Borrowed before PG, Day Off before TC if possible, and Aftermath, Even Hand and Bombshells in their proper chronological place.  And I think I would really enjoy if they did Fistful of Warlocks just before DB. 
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2018, 02:58:36 PM »
Im a big fan of RvB, but I never was able to get into RWBY, something about the faces and way they moved outside of the awesome combat scenes hit me too hard in the Uncanny Valley to really give it the chance it deserved (and Im a massive anime fan so it's not just the BESM style).  But that's really my only hesitance with Rooster Teeth: while they've proven capable action animators they arent the best when it comes to original art assets or design or conveying subtle human emotion and facial movement and whatnot. 

There was a dramatic improvement in animation quality after the first season of RWBY. I was hesitant too, because I thought it looked terrible overall from the start. It felt like something an indie developer would make for a Nintendo system. It still feels like a video game rendering system, but for something actually good, like Valkyria Chronicles.

To me, the biggest flaw was always the weird physics. Models never seemed to actually interact with anything, just sort of collide with it. Picking something up might look like they pass their hand over it, and suddenly they're holding it.

That and some serious genre shifts later on makes it worth sticking with, in my opinion. It takes a serious turn, and the happy-go-lucky, genki style of the beginning moves on to way darker material. That and, you know, raised stakes, et cetera.

RT really likes to take something, start it off light and funny, then have a dramatic twist that takes things in an unexpected direction.

I still think that with minor changes you could group three books into a season and get a decent season every time:

Season 1 (StF, FM, GP) - Insert Bianca into Fool Moon and you got a big bad.

Season 2 (SK, DM, BR) - Insert Thomas into Summer Knight and you have a Thomas season.

Season 3 (DB, PG, WN) Add Cowl into Harry's PTSD in Proven Guilty and call it a day.

Season 4 (SmF, TC, Changes) - Thread Peabody into Small Favor and call it a day. You've earned it. Plus, Changes makes a hell of a finale.

Season 5 (GS, CD, SG) - Pretty solid through line that puts Harry back together by the end of the season. Mostly.

I can get behind tweaks like that. So long as it doesn't screw up the lore and adds to the story rather than detracts from it, I'd be fine.

Not sure I agree about ending a season with Cold Days, Quantus. The Gates make it seem like the scope of the overall series is going to change, but it really doesn't in Skin Game; the stakes shrink down to personal, relatively minor political maneuvering. Peace Talks will bring the scale back to a global level, but Mirror Mirror probably won't. Then comes Fight Night, right? I think it'd make more sense to do Peace Talks (which, I believe, will feature a lot of fan service, with returning characters galore), then Mirror Mirror (which will likely feature many of those reintroduced characters but in a separate, bizzaro-world context), then Fight Night, where Harry returns to solve a more run-of-the-mill mystery, but is introduced to a different pantheon of gods, who will presumably be bigger players moving on.

Plus it's kind of hard to beat the ending of Skin Game; it's Harry's first total, untarnished victory. He feels guilty about Ascher, Murphy getting hurt, and is worried about losing the Grail, but he's finally got some of the things he wants. Things will be more different for him in Peace Talks than they were at the start of Changes, but the message is still the same: Harry's back, and Chicago's his turf.

That's how I see it, anyway.


Offline Quantus

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2018, 03:58:05 PM »
Not sure I agree about ending a season with Cold Days, Quantus. The Gates make it seem like the scope of the overall series is going to change, but it really doesn't in Skin Game; the stakes shrink down to personal, relatively minor political maneuvering. Peace Talks will bring the scale back to a global level, but Mirror Mirror probably won't. Then comes Fight Night, right? I think it'd make more sense to do Peace Talks (which, I believe, will feature a lot of fan service, with returning characters galore), then Mirror Mirror (which will likely feature many of those reintroduced characters but in a separate, bizzaro-world context), then Fight Night, where Harry returns to solve a more run-of-the-mill mystery, but is introduced to a different pantheon of gods, who will presumably be bigger players moving on.

Plus it's kind of hard to beat the ending of Skin Game; it's Harry's first total, untarnished victory. He feels guilty about Ascher, Murphy getting hurt, and is worried about losing the Grail, but he's finally got some of the things he wants. Things will be more different for him in Peace Talks than they were at the start of Changes, but the message is still the same: Harry's back, and Chicago's his turf.

That's how I see it, anyway.
That should only be an issue if you are trying to make Skin Game stand on it's own, but it wouldnt need to because it would be part of the SG/PT Season (or even SG/PT/MM).  But I think thematically Skin Game is a big deviation from the three before, but would jive much better with Peace Talks since both are about the wider political situation of the world.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2018, 02:11:10 PM »
That should only be an issue if you are trying to make Skin Game stand on it's own, but it wouldnt need to because it would be part of the SG/PT Season (or even SG/PT/MM).  But I think thematically Skin Game is a big deviation from the three before, but would jive much better with Peace Talks since both are about the wider political situation of the world.

My thinking is that Ghost Story/Cold Days/Skin Game stands as a trilogy about Harry returning to Chicago. First to life, then to Demonreach, then back home.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2018, 02:44:23 PM »
My thinking is that Ghost Story/Cold Days/Skin Game stands as a trilogy about Harry returning to Chicago. First to life, then to Demonreach, then back home.
Ah, kk.  Jim said he viewed the Changes/GS/CD as more a Death, Afterlife and Rebirth set.
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Offline WereElephant

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2018, 06:49:57 PM »
I still think that with minor changes you could group three books into a season and get a decent season every time:

Season 1 (StF, FM, GP) - Insert Bianca into Fool Moon and you got a big bad.

Season 2 (SK, DM, BR) - Insert Thomas into Summer Knight and you have a Thomas season.

Season 3 (DB, PG, WN) Add Cowl into Harry's PTSD in Proven Guilty and call it a day.

Season 4 (SmF, TC, Changes) - Thread Peabody into Small Favor and call it a day. You've earned it. Plus, Changes makes a hell of a finale.

Season 5 (GS, CD, SG) - Pretty solid through line that puts Harry back together by the end of the season. Mostly.

I like almost all of this. The time gap between books could still be a problem, but those groupings look fantastic. Changes as a "cliffhanger" at the end of Season 4 also works out well.

Offline Lost Merlin

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2018, 08:23:05 PM »
I still think that with minor changes you could group three books into a season and get a decent season every time:

Season 1 (StF, FM, GP) - Insert Bianca into Fool Moon and you got a big bad.

Season 2 (SK, DM, BR) - Insert Thomas into Summer Knight and you have a Thomas season.

Season 3 (DB, PG, WN) Add Cowl into Harry's PTSD in Proven Guilty and call it a day.

Season 4 (SmF, TC, Changes) - Thread Peabody into Small Favor and call it a day. You've earned it. Plus, Changes makes a hell of a finale.

Season 5 (GS, CD, SG) - Pretty solid through line that puts Harry back together by the end of the season. Mostly.

It would mess up the changes Cliff Hanger but you could always start at SmF and do 2 books per season. 

so
S4 - SmF & TC
S5 - Changes & GS - Harry Death a Mid season Cliff Hanger.  Harry waking up in his body end of Season
S6 - CD & SG
s7 - PT & MM


Also with all this talk, I would hate for the same thing to happen to a new DF series as has happened to ASOIF.  Butcher needs to finish the books before he starts up with alternative media. 

Offline khadgar4606

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Re: Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2018, 06:37:33 AM »
you know how about we build it as crime show drama  like flash were  papa raith is still the big bad but we add lets say 5 to 10 episodes of harrys regular investigation work like few cases from police and may be job from lara or white council as  to fill the season