Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?

[Mr. Death]

The way it's most consistent with the story is that Malcolm is Malcolm and Nicodemus is Nicodemus.

What makes Malcolm special is that he's just a mortal man who was good and fell in love with Maggie. Shoehorning other people into his backstory misses the whole point of him and Maggie's redemption.

[raidem]

I'm fine with that.  What I'm thinking about for Malcolm/Nic really needs lots of setups and explaining, etc.  It is a bit complicated.

Having read the Amber Chronicles, I've started to like that Malcolm is descended from a family of walkers.  Walkers that can travel to and from parallel worlds.  This would make Malcolm's bloodline important and one more reason why Harry and his bloodline via Malcolm important to target.

[Mr. Death]

Then I would ask that you keep that to the wilder threads you've already made about Dresden and Amber.

This thread is actually one of the semi-plausible theories that I can kinda get behind, and I'd prefer to keep talking about that instead of derailing it into something that is, at best, extremely unlikely and contradictory to the nature of the characters involved.

[Griffyn612]

I guess one question, which has already come up in this thread once but wasn't specifically addressed, was which coin she would have had.

Lasciel's is the obvious answer, but maybe not the best. 

Rosanna's coin is another interesting option, but was presumably in use by Rosanna when Margaret was active.  I don't know if we know how long Rosanna has been Tessa's second, but I was left with the impression that it had been a while.

And then there's Thorned Namshiel.  Again, we have no way of knowing how long the previous host was in possession, but Namshiel being a caster coin makes it an interesting pairing.

The rest aren't particularly special, from what we've seen.  And there's the possibility that she had one that's still secure somewhere and out of circulation.

The thing that appeals to me about Namshiel is the idea that Namshiel's host ended up infected, with Namshiel either going along with it or being helpless to stop it.

If Namshiel went along with it, it makes you wonder about this rebellious streak that the other Denarians didn't seem to know about.  Given Margaret's rebellious nature, it's an interesting pair, and makes me wonder about the possibility that she influenced Namshiel somehow. 

If Namshiel didn't go along with it, but lost control due to infection of the host, it makes you wonder who the host was, and when they were infected.  With Margaret potentially being involved with Outsider business with Raith and the Sidhe, could it be that she gave up the coin, and someone else involved (and infected) picked up the coin?

Not to mention the potential for familiarity with Winter, if Margaret was involved with Mab like some theorize.  It'd make the attack on AT more interesting.

Of course, Lasciel has a lot of interesting possibilities, like Lash knowing Margaret's history, but there's also the issues, like neither her nor Nico using that fact to help recruit Harry.  Seducing Harry with the promise of info about his mother would have been incredibly tempting.  Offering to appear as her, or share the memories of her life with her, would have helped Lasciel seal the deal.

[Mr. Death]

I'm not sure how well Namshiel would fit -- given what we know about the Denarian naming scheme, he seems like one who's more in control than his host. Maggie seems more willful than that, so I don't see her getting along very well with Namshiel.

Rosanna's coin, it's harder to say. She does seem like someone who's been in the game with the coin for a while, so it would depend on just when Margaret was going around with Nicodemus; by default, it would have to be before she took up with Lord Raith, since that seems to be the very last thing before she gave up on that life. So that's 30+ years in the past.

We don't know enough about Rosanna to make a yay or nay of it, unfortunately.

Lasciel still makes the most sense to me, though yes, it is odd that Nicodemus wouldn't have used that information. Lasciel did hide quite a bit from Harry, and in her last conversation she seems to imply she knows a lot more about Maggie Sr. than she'd previously indicated. In fact, that she knows what Maggie was thinking when she left Lord Raith.

[Griffyn612]

I'm not sure how well Namshiel would fit -- given what we know about the Denarian naming scheme, he seems like one who's more in control than his host. Maggie seems more willful than that, so I don't see her getting along very well with Namshiel.

Rosanna's coin, it's harder to say. She does seem like someone who's been in the game with the coin for a while, so it would depend on just when Margaret was going around with Nicodemus; by default, it would have to be before she took up with Lord Raith, since that seems to be the very last thing before she gave up on that life. So that's 30+ years in the past.

We don't know enough about Rosanna to make a yay or nay of it, unfortunately.

Lasciel still makes the most sense to me, though yes, it is odd that Nicodemus wouldn't have used that information. Lasciel did hide quite a bit from Harry, and in her last conversation she seems to imply she knows a lot more about Maggie Sr. than she'd previously indicated. In fact, that she knows what Maggie was thinking when she left Lord Raith.

For Rosanna, we know that she had her coin at least 10 years before Sanya showed up as a KotC in DM.  He was mid-twenties then, and he took up the coin at sixteen, and had it for five years.

Rosanna could have taken it up right after Margaret.  With Harry being 28 in DM, plus 2 years with Malcolm, plus 5 years (minimum) with Raith (given that Thomas was about 5 when she left), that's at least 35 years Rosanna could have had it.

By comparison, the temptress would have spent years in Harry's head without ever tempting him with the thing he wanted more than anything: a connection to his mother.

Lash could have replayed memories of Margaret's.  She could have shared stories about the two working together, sometimes even against Nico (because we know they historically don't work together) to make a better world.  And she could have reassured him that he could set the coin aside just like she must have done, pointing out that (with Chauncey's previous statement reinforcing) Margaret didn't lose herself or her soul by bearing the coin for a time.

Combine that with the knowledge that Sanya was a redeemed bearer, and Harry would have been sorely tempted to take up a power that he knew he could give up when he wanted, and use it to do good things like his mother had, all while gaining insight into her and her life.

[Mr. Death]

All good points.

Lasciel is subtle -- very subtle. And given Harry's distrust of her already, I could see her easing into it as much as possible to avoid scaring him off.

Yes, memories of his mother are among the things Harry wants the most -- but recall what happens when Vaderung gives Harry exactly what he wants. Harry is instantly suspicious about getting what he wants.

If Lasciel offered that to Harry too soon, Harry would reject it as too good to be true -- exactly like he does with Chauncy or Thomas.

Especially with Lasciel, he'd figure it was a way -- a particularly cruel way -- to try and get him to get his guard down, and he'd probably redouble his efforts to lock her out.

Harry's mother is a sensitive subject with him, so unless Harry does trust Lash already, telling too much about Maggie Sr. runs a risk of just pissing Harry off.

[Griffyn612]

All good points.

Lasciel is subtle -- very subtle. And given Harry's distrust of her already, I could see her easing into it as much as possible to avoid scaring him off.

Yes, memories of his mother are among the things Harry wants the most -- but recall what happens when Vaderung gives Harry exactly what he wants. Harry is instantly suspicious about getting what he wants.

If Lasciel offered that to Harry too soon, Harry would reject it as too good to be true -- exactly like he does with Chauncy or Thomas.

Especially with Lasciel, he'd figure it was a way -- a particularly cruel way -- to try and get him to get his guard down, and he'd probably redouble his efforts to lock her out.

Harry's mother is a sensitive subject with him, so unless Harry does trust Lash already, telling too much about Maggie Sr. runs a risk of just pissing Harry off.

He's also got a weakness for helping women and bucking convention.  If she had presented herself as no friend of Nico's (supported by what he was told by people he trusts) who had worked with his mother as equals to rebel against a flawed system and do the right thing, he'd have eaten it up.  Especially if she'd offered the memories for free.

The important thing to remember about Thomas and Vadderung is that he met them with initial skepticism, but ultimately accepted both because they were honest with him.  Lasciel, as the ultimate Temptress, should have had more in her repertoire than offering mind-sex and power.  Some deft deceptive honesty would have gone a lot farther with Harry than lies.

Since she didn't use any of that, in the several years she had with him, it suggests she didn't have that option.

[groinkick]

Since she didn't use any of that, in the several years she had with him, it suggests she didn't have that option.

Harry never fully accepted the Coin.  He buried it.  This may have limited Lasciel's influence quite a lot.

[Griffyn612]

Harry never fully accepted the Coin.  He buried it.  This may have limited Lasciel's influence quite a lot.

WoJ is that Lasciel knew everything Lash did.  There was at least a one way communication between them.  Lash knew extinct languages.  She could give Harry access to hellfire.

But even if Lash couldn't get anything from Lasciel after the coin was sealed away, she'd still know what she needed to be that point.  She could perceive his mind and read his memory.  She could process things at the speed of thought.  She had a couple hours to understand him and download everything relevant before he finished in the subbasement.

[groinkick]

WoJ is that Lasciel knew everything Lash did.  There was at least a one way communication between them.  Lash knew extinct languages.  She could give Harry access to hellfire.

But even if Lash couldn't get anything from Lasciel after the coin was sealed away, she'd still know what she needed to be that point.  She could perceive his mind and read his memory.  She could process things at the speed of thought.  She had a couple hours to understand him and download everything relevant before he finished in the subbasement.

I know but Harry never really experienced the bonding that others who embrace a Coin feel.  Didn't feel the true power.  We know the power was limited or Lash would not have needed to summon the Coin to protect Harry from death, and instead needed to sacrifice herself.  The power was limited.  I see it like Thomas and his demon.  Thomas is his own man, but feels the physical need to feed.  Harry felt some of the power but not really his entire being, including physical body becoming one with the Coin like the other Coin holders.

[Griffyn612]

I know but Harry never really experienced the bonding that others who embrace a Coin feel.  Didn't feel the true power.  We know the power was limited or Lash would not have needed to summon the Coin to protect Harry from death, and instead needed to sacrifice herself.  The power was limited.  I see it like Thomas and his demon.  Thomas is his own man, but feels the physical need to feed.  Harry felt some of the power but not really his entire being, including physical body becoming one with the Coin like the other Coin holders.

But Lash wouldn't need power.  She'd just need knowledge to help convince Harry to take up the coin.  Memories of Margaret.

If Margaret had the coin, and gave it up on her own without giving up her power (as proposed here) and without giving up her sense of self and her soul (as suggested by Chauncey), then Harry would have no reason to not give it a try. 

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, I don't really have a solid answer for why Lash wouldn't have said anything sooner, except that she was waiting for the right time.

But out of the three proposed candidates, she makes the most sense, if Maggie did indeed have a coin.

[Griffyn612]

Yeah, I don't really have a solid answer for why Lash wouldn't have said anything sooner, except that she was waiting for the right time.

But out of the three proposed candidates, she makes the most sense, if Maggie did indeed have a coin.

We're agreed on that.  Namshiel is an intriguing possiblity under very specific circumstances that are, at best, unlikely.  And Rosanna has likely been with Tessa for quite some time.

[groinkick]

We're agreed on that.  Namshiel is an intriguing possiblity under very specific circumstances that are, at best, unlikely.  And Rosanna has likely been with Tessa for quite some time.

There are like 30 Coins right?  If by some chance she took up a Coin, perhaps we will be introduced to a new Fallen in a future book?  Tessa is believed to have stolen possibly 11 Coins.  Would be interesting to see some of their persona's since there could be a little civil war between the Fallen.