Grey Council Members Poll Yet Again, Mortals Only

[Talby16]

I don't see Ramirez as being old enough to join. I think that Eb would choose wizards who have been around the block and are not as susceptible to temptation/mind bending.

[Rasins]

I don't see Ramirez as being old enough to join. I think that Eb would choose wizards who have been around the block and are not as susceptible to temptation/mind bending.

I can see that.  Though He has (had to) grown up a LOT since becoming a Warden.  And since we haven't met that many wizards, and given Jim's statement, I wouldn't be surprised if Ramirez was on the GC.

[Quantus]

I don't see Ramirez as being old enough to join. I think that Eb would choose wizards who have been around the block and are not as susceptible to temptation/mind bending.

The flip side is that when given evidence of Actual mind-bending in TC, it was Ramirez that Eb chose to execute the Search of Peabody's rooms. Given the high-profile nature of the case, that speaks to a lot of trust. 

[wardenferry419]

The flip side is that when given evidence of Actual mind-bending in TC, it was Ramirez that Eb chose to execute the Search of Peabody's rooms. Given the high-profile nature of the case, that speaks to a lot of trust.

One factor might have been Ramirez being relatively new to position and therefore not deemed significant to Peabody's plans.

[Quantus]

One factor might have been Ramirez being relatively new to position and therefore not deemed significant to Peabody's plans.

Fair point, though given the whole Age Prevents Mental Tampering bit it might have made more tactical sense to approach one of his friends in the Old Guard wardens, or hell even LTW.

[Lost Merlin]

I would like to think that Langtry would know of the GC's existence but is not a member, merely a condoning (as long as they stay in the shadows) ally. 

[Quantus]

I would like to think that Langtry would know of the GC's existence but is not a member, merely a condoning (as long as they stay in the shadows) ally.

I counter that by saying Id like to think that The Blackstaff would be capable of keeping the secret, and unless he is very intentionally lying to Harry, then he created the GC specifically because he was not getting the Merlin's support the way he thought he should.  I just dont see either of them going the GC route if they were working together on it; there'd be nothing stopping Eb from simply establishing his own group of Wardens like I assume the Brute Squad was for Simon. 

[Lost Merlin]

I counter that by saying Id like to think that The Blackstaff would be capable of keeping the secret, and unless he is very intentionally lying to Harry, then he created the GC specifically because he was not getting the Merlin's support the way he thought he should.  I just dont see either of them going the GC route if they were working together on it; there'd be nothing stopping Eb from simply establishing his own group of Wardens like I assume the Brute Squad was for Simon.

First, I agree if the Blackstaff wants to keep a secret, he will most likely be able to do that.  Including from the Merlin.  I think the Merlin knows because he isn't dumb.  (don't get to be leader ... bottlecaps, so on and so forth) Merlin is at the head of a powerful Magical organization, who granted is short staffed, but is still a major power in the world.  He should have the intellect and knowledge to see what is going on.

I think there is a difference between supporting something and acting on it as the Head of a Major Power.  Take in to account the scene in the Worry Room in Changes between the Merlin and Harry.  They all think the peace is a joke, but have to put on the airs of trying.  Same thing could be said of this.  Merlin needs to put on airs officially that there is no BC, hence there is no need for a GC to combat them. 

[Bacchus]

hmm can someone explain how the merlin could be on it?

      It was very clear that secrecy was of extreme importance because they could be labeled as the black council etc etc
merlin controls a few council votes Ebenezer has a few allies and between them they would have an easy majority of the senior council and could do whatever they hell they want. 

 In wars they make groups of solders for covert ops all the time. That wouldn't be controversial at all to effectively be replacing the brute squad that got killed.
If more than 3 senior council members joined or merlin was involved it would seem delta force type secrecy and not high treason secrecy which is what the book clearly indicates to me.

i don't think merlin is dark because there were a few times when he could have easily destroyed the council or let them be killed off.
I think hes old and set in his ways and Ebeneezer thinks his ways will lead to defeat.

[Quantus]

First, I agree if the Blackstaff wants to keep a secret, he will most likely be able to do that.  Including from the Merlin.  I think the Merlin knows because he isn't dumb.  (don't get to be leader ... bottlecaps, so on and so forth) Merlin is at the head of a powerful Magical organization, who granted is short staffed, but is still a major power in the world.  He should have the intellect and knowledge to see what is going on.

Your saying that McCoy /could hide it from Langtry but has chosen not to?

I think there is a difference between supporting something and acting on it as the Head of a Major Power.  Take in to account the scene in the Worry Room in Changes between the Merlin and Harry.  They all think the peace is a joke, but have to put on the airs of trying.  Same thing could be said of this.  Merlin needs to put on airs officially that there is no BC, hence there is no need for a GC to combat them.

That's the thing though, as the merlin he could accomplish all the same things without the MASSIVE liability that the GC poses should it become known (as outlined by Harry and Em at its founding).  An Officially sanctioned but still very Secret task force or Wardens could accomplish exactly the same thing with no political fallout if they are revealed.  The only reason they have to take the Risk with the GC is if they are being forced to because they cannot operate within the WC, which would be superior in all ways. 

[Lost Merlin]

Your saying that McCoy /could hide it from Langtry but has chosen not to?

No not at all, What I am saying is that Langtry knows it exists out there, but does not know specifics.  So yes McCoy is able to hide that he is apart of it as well as hide who the members are.  If Harry and Carlos as junior wizards with limited intel have been able to figure out the existence of a BC, then it stands to reason, that the Merlin has as well (even though he denies it).  I assume from there that Langtry has also been able to deduce that there is another entity combating this BC in an attempt to foil their plans. 

[Lost Merlin]

That's the thing though, as the merlin he could accomplish all the same things without the MASSIVE liability that the GC poses should it become known (as outlined by Harry and Em at its founding).  An Officially sanctioned but still very Secret task force or Wardens could accomplish exactly the same thing with no political fallout if they are revealed.  The only reason they have to take the Risk with the GC is if they are being forced to because they cannot operate within the WC, which would be superior in all ways.

The WC still has the accords to worry about as well as political implications. If a wizard was seen killing a Wamp or Fae who was associated with the BC it would spell trouble for the WC. 

Also, Even a very secret task force would still be bound to observe the code and conduct of the WC.  As far as I know only McCoy as the Blackstaff has the official sanction to do as he wishes.  Any other wizards on this GC would be limited by those rules and would be ineffective against fighting an enemy who is matched in power, but will do anything to win. 

[Quantus]

No not at all, What I am saying is that Langtry knows it exists out there, but does not know specifics.  So yes McCoy is able to hide that he is apart of it as well as hide who the members are.  If Harry and Carlos as junior wizards with limited intel have been able to figure out the existence of a BC, then it stands to reason, that the Merlin has as well (even though he denies it).  I assume from there that Langtry has also been able to deduce that there is another entity combating this BC in an attempt to foil their plans.

Wait, so you think that Langrty thinks the Black Council and the Grey Council are the same thing?

[Lost Merlin]

Wait, so you think that Langrty thinks the Black Council and the Grey Council are the same thing?

No I think he sees two groups fighting one against the another. I think he has seen proof of the existence of a Original Group (the BC) and recent developments have hinted to an existence of a Second Group (GC) that is actively trying to combat the Original Group.

[Quantus]

No I think he sees two groups fighting one against the another. I think he has seen proof of the existence of a Original Group (the BC) and recent developments have hinted to an existence of a Second Group (GC) that is actively trying to combat the Original Group.

Ah, ok.   I dont really think so (at least not from what Ive seen so far) because I dont think he would at all tolerate the GC for the danger it's very existence poses to the WC