Grey Council vs. Circle

[raidem]

(I've included the vs. Circle in the topic so that we can talk about members of the Circle too.)

I think I found another member of the Grey Council.

"his Bigfoot client Strength of a River in His Shoulders,
"B is for Bigfoot"takes place between Fool Moon and Grave Peril. "I Was a Teenage Bigfoot" takes place circa Deadbeat. "Bigfoot on Campus" takes place between Turn Coat and Changes.  Since Bigfoot is in the story up to Changes, I think it is a given he plays a part in Changes.

Side note: Bigfoot River's has a son named Irwin.  (Side track, thinking of the name Corwin)

I think Bigfoot is a member of the Grey Council!!! 

WOJ's:

#136 “I am also highly intrigued by the Gray Council showing up as 12 in number.”
Thirteen, actually: Harry was already there.
“So we found out who 2 of them were, i’d like to know how many of the rest we already know and how many of them haven’t been formally introduced to us yet.”
Hang on, counting… You already know six of the folks who showed up at Chichen Itza, excluding McCoy and Vadderung.

So we know 6 but don't know 4 of the 10 Gray Council members.  The other 3 are Harry, McCoy, Vadderung.  So, if Bigfoot is one of the 6 we know, then we need to find out 5 more some or most of which come from the White Council.

Hmm... Now that I'm thinking about it, anyone that seems like they have a alibi as to not being a member of the Grey Council as they were at Edinburgh because they were locked up, or sick, etc, doesn't necessarily have such a "ALIBI."  In Amber, shadows of the person exist, so they can take the place of the 'original' person.  We also know in DF, that people can be impersonated. So, when McCoy says that LTW is hold up sick in Edinburgh, I wouldn't necessarily take that as a strict restriction on his membership.

[dspringer1]

Interesting theory.   My caution on accepting it is that the grey council should be made up of wizards.   100% wizards.  After all, it is a renegade faction of wizards operating in secret against their own government.   

I recognize that Odin was in the battle at Changes, but nothing but Harry's assumption indicated that the attackers were all grey council.  To me it feels like some grey council members plus important allies.   

The other caution is that Harry did not know anything physically distinctive about the wizards that came to his assistance.   River Shoulders would have been visually obvious as he is much larger than a human. 

[raidem]

I think a short acting polymorph spell could be used to further hide their identity.  The person could still on top of that have shape-changing abilities besides that.

Interesting theory.   My caution on accepting it is that the grey council should be made up of wizards.   100% wizards.  After all, it is a renegade faction of wizards operating in secret against their own government.

I was thinking since the Black council appears to have Outsiders with them. Then, the Grey Council should have some Insiders with them.  Odin would be one such 'Insider.'  I get your sentiments though.

[Quantus]

Interesting theory.   My caution on accepting it is that the grey council should be made up of wizards.   100% wizards.  After all, it is a renegade faction of wizards operating in secret against their own government.   

I recognize that Odin was in the battle at Changes, but nothing but Harry's assumption indicated that the attackers were all grey council.  To me it feels like some grey council members plus important allies.   

I would counter that they are all likely 100% "Magic-users", which Id say would include Odin given that trained Merlin.  But we know (per McCoy's description at their founding) that the GC ranks include "Some Wizards. Some Key Allies." which to me means that some of their ranks are specifically not mortal wizards. 

The other caution is that Harry did not know anything physically distinctive about the wizards that came to his assistance.   River Shoulders would have been visually obvious as he is much larger than a human.

This.  Had any of the twelve at arrived been that discinct from the rest, I would have expected some offhand mention. 

That being said, River Shoulders is a master at Water Magic and at concealment, both of which could solve that problem with trivial effort. 

[kris.vickers]

Gard is a Valkyrie, yes? One of Odin's upper echelon of warriors, and has helped/been helped by Dresden in the past. Odin could have asked or been asked by her to assist. Her skills would not have been unneeded.

[wardenferry419]

Are there 4 members that might have been mentioned in passing but never appeared?

[raidem]

I don't think she has the magical chops like wizards do. She is more focused on runes, weapons, etc.  She could be standing there activating rune upon rune on a weapon ( I believe the Grey Council was basically standing in place generally launching spells) toward the enemies.

[raidem]

Are there 4 members that might have been mentioned in passing but never appeared?

There are 4 people that we don't know about or haven't been 'formally introduced.'

#136 “I am also highly intrigued by the Gray Council showing up as 12 in number.”
Thirteen, actually: Harry was already there.
“So we found out who 2 of them were, i’d like to know how many of the rest we already know and how many of them haven’t been formally introduced to us yet.”
Hang on, counting… You already know six of the folks who showed up at Chichen Itza, excluding McCoy and Vadderung.

[kris.vickers]

Didn't he say about the same thing about Jade Court representatives? In a roundabout way, that not only are they out there but we've already seen one?

[wardenferry419]

I was taking "formally introduced" to imply that an appearance has been made; while a passing mention is less formal.

[kris.vickers]

Of course, a named character vs background NPC. Named things have power after all.

[peregrine]

My main issue is, as was said, River Shoulders would be a noticeable physical figure.  Now, he could have been shape changed, but why, other than to hide his identity from Harry, the only person who would know of their connection?

Also, he's not really shown up much as a character in the main series, so I don't really think Jim would throw a character we've only met in short stories into such a role in the main books.

Given that the Circle/Black Council is suggested to include more than just strictly mortal wizards (Probably a denarian, probably some vampires) it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to include other flavors of supernatural forces on the Grey as well.

I wouldn't expect to see Gard as one of the 13 though, either.  I don't see anything that she brings to the table that Odin doesn't, just more of the same, and having a subordinate like that basically gives Odin 2 votes rather than 1 for any kind of democracy they do.

Luccio and/or Ramirez would also be good candidates, I would think.  Only question is whether or not they'd be able to slip away and make it to the fight.

Also, someone with the books handy can probably double check me, but Lea and the Knights are very definitively out of the running, yes?  Already there when the rest of them showed up to make 13.

[raidem]

Harry was a Knight. Lea there. Oh I see what your saying.

I don't know that 'Fix' would be there. I think it would be more likely that Eldest Gruff was.

[peregrine]

Of the Cross, I meant.  My mistake.

[raidem]

Yeah, all three swords were there. Murphy, Susan, and Sanya.

Summer should be represented I feel in teh Grey Council.  I think Eldest Gruff would be a good candidate for the Grey Council.  He had killed a few members of the Senior Council before.

Now, he could have been shape changed, but why, other than to hide his identity from Harry, the only person who would know of their connection?
I think the 12 would want to remain generically similar in shape.  They aren't just hiding their identity from Harry.