Grey Council vs. Circle

[Quantus]

Yeah, all three swords were there. Murphy, Susan, and Sanya.

Summer should be represented I feel in teh Grey Council.  I think Eldest Gruff would be a good candidate for the Grey Council.  He had killed a few members of the Senior Council before.

Now, he could have been shape changed, but why, other than to hide his identity from Harry, the only person who would know of their connection?

I have serious doubts on whether Gruff would join such a group and potentially split his loyalties (extra dangerous for Fae, given their oath/Lie rules).  And if it's McCoy doing the recruiting then carrying around the trophies of your Wizards Killed (whom he potentially knew) is not really going to be a point in his favor; a mark of power sure, but it doesnt put him in the "Key Allies" category either.  Now, if Vadderung had input into the membership, he might have recruited Gruff or even the Erlking.  But with McCoy making the call I see at least as many thing against as for on the Gruff, even assuming he'd be willing.

Also, while Vadderung might have some mysterious reason to balance the team along cosmic lines with summer/winter etc, but McCoy seems to me to be taking a much more practical military/political stance.

I think the 12 would want to remain generically similar in shape.  They aren't just hiding their identity from Harry.

Theoretically they shouldnt have actually been hiding it from Harry; he'd just missed the meeting (for what they apparently decided was good reason) where they were supposed to reveal themselves to each other. 

[raidem]

I meant they'd need to hide their identities from non grey council.  If you have some grossly apparent outlier, that gives an additional way ftor someone to guess as to the membership of the group.

[Quantus]

I meant they'd need to hide their identities from non grey council.  If you have some grossly apparent outlier, that gives an additional way ftor someone to guess as to the membership of the group.

Sorry, my bad.  I got that, I was only challenging the idea that the GC members would be hiding their ID's from Harry. 

[Bacchus]

As for Eldest Gruff i was under the impression that hes sorta summers version of the leansidshe and is only so powerful because he totally loyal to Titania.  Its been  established that Titania refuses to help harry in any way even when Apocalypse is the result. of the summer Fae the EarlKing is the only guy id see joining he is mostly free to act as he sees fit , he may be brutal and semi evil but he definably wouldn't want the outsiders to destroy the world. Odin has been in wild hunts with him for at least 1000 years so odin could have vouched for him.

as for Ramirez to join the Grey Council requires extreme trust that your not a traitor or infected and hes only really been active as a wizard for a decade or so which isn't nearly enough time to build up that trust. 

Lucio seems right.
id say Klaus the toymaker is a good guess for those not introduced only because readers have wanted to know more about him for ages so it would make scene for Jim to give him a real role in the books and that seems like a good way to write him into the books.

Bigfoot seems wrong to me but i don't have any strong reasons. Ebenezer seems to have a distrust of most non humans and if he was there i doubt he would want to take on the red king and his lords in a gimped half size form for almost no reason, thats the kinda fight you bring your A game too.

if Lucio is in Chandler is a good option because Lucio seems to trust him completely and may have a good reason for that trust that we don't know about that could convince Ebeneezer to add him

Also id say the gatekeeper is a near certainty. We can assume Ebeneezer knows of his job at the outer gates and thats about close to 100% proof as you can get that hes clean as he could have let the outsiders in to destroy the world long ago.

as for others id look for wizards that have been active for at least 100 years or some other reason for complete trust as with dresden
 guys like that old guard warden bjorn 

[Quantus]

I have some nitpicks, please humor me:

As for Eldest Gruff i was under the impression that hes sorta summers version of the leansidshe and is only so powerful because he totally loyal to Titania. 

She is his "counterpart" only in the sense that they are both very powerful and very close to their respective queens.  They are wildly different in most ways and not any sort of literal Balance to each other (not like teh Knights or ladies or whatever).  The biggest difference to my mind being that we have it confirmed that Gruff (as an "Eldest") is a Mantled immortal, while Lea is not. 

Its been  established that Titania refuses to help harry in any way even when Apocalypse is the result.

Not really, and this is a very important distinction.  She refused to get involved for a bunch of reasons that were mostly about Harry and Aurora.  But her lack of action didnt actually threaten an Apocalypse, at least not how Harry feared it did, because Mab herself was not actually Crazy.  But Titiania's whole Purpose is still to guard against that very thing, and she did not actually Refuse that Duty.  Doing so, even being capable, would require and indicate an Nemfection or similar outside Taint. 


Ok, Nitpicks done.  Thanks for humoring me.

as for Ramirez to join the Grey Council requires extreme trust that your not a traitor or infected and hes only really been active as a wizard for a decade or so which isn't nearly enough time to build up that trust. 

I generally agree with this, but as a mark in his favor Carlos was the only Warden that McCoy trusted to help investigate Peabody's rooms during that highly charged political time. 

if Lucio is in Chandler is a good option because Lucio seems to trust him completely and may have a good reason for that trust that we don't know about that could convince Ebeneezer to add him

Hmmm, maaaaybe?  All indications in the books seemed to be that She trusted the crap out of him personally. But the WOJ on him is that part of it for him is that they dont entirely trust him because his magic involves Temporal Manipulation, which makes them nervous. The WOJ said he's a Warden so they can keep an eye on him. 

Also id say the gatekeeper is a near certainty. We can assume Ebeneezer knows of his job at the outer gates and thats about close to 100% proof as you can get that hes clean as he could have let the outsiders in to destroy the world long ago.

I really dont think so. McCoy very clearly didnt trust him as of PG, said so himself very directly.  But he also said that it was a recent (wartime) development, so even if it wasnt just Peabody pushing him to distrust it might be something he's gotten over in the time since.  Especially given how often Rashid has kicked in on Harry's side, which I believe carries a lot of weight with Eb. 

[Rasins]

Okay so I'm a bit confused and want some clarification ...
There are 13 members of the Grey council.

#136 “I am also highly intrigued by the Gray Council showing up as 12 in number.”
Thirteen, actually: Harry was already there.
“So we found out who 2 of them were, i’d like to know how many of the rest we already know and how many of them haven’t been formally introduced to us yet.”
Hang on, counting… You already know six of the folks who showed up at Chichen Itza, excluding McCoy and Vadderung.

13 - Harry
12 - Ebenezer
11 - Odin/Vadderung
10 - We've met/seen but don't know
09 - We've met/seen but don't know
08 - We've met/seen but don't know
07 - We've met/seen but don't know
06 - We've met/seen but don't know
05 - We've met/seen but don't know
04 - Have not met
03 - Have not met
02 - Have not met
01 - Have not met

Do I have the slots correct?  And we're trying to figure out the "We've met/seen but don't know" category, right?

[wardenferry419]

I think your listing seems right. As for the rest, we are just tossing theories and ideas at the wall to see what sticks. That is, until Butcher changes the wall. LOL

[raidem]

Yep.  You have it right. I wish I had done that from the beginning.  I just did it in my head.

[Bacchus]

hmm i should go look up what ebineezer said in pg i guess.

 I was also going off how the gatekeeper was one of the only ones to know Maggie la fey was EB's daughter and watched out for her on EB's behalf. it seems he is doing the same thing for Dresden, either on his own or on EB's request. He often seems to pop up and give Dresden just enough help to succeed.

also for those who guess at senior council members, i feel like the merlin cant be in the grey council and no more than 3 senior council members total (not a majority vote)
otherwise the extreme secrecy and worry that they would be executed as traitors wouldn't make sense. They would just be a top secret classified group doing covert actions which is relatively common during any war.  thats why i think EB LtW and the gatekeeper as the most likely senior council members.

is there a real reason most dont seem to include LtW in their guesses?

[raidem]

It is because Eb says LTW was layed up sick in Edinburgh.

I've come to believe that we really ought not use people having 'alibi' as a reason to strictly cross them off as their are people that can impersonate them.  Also, there are there other self in these parallel worlds that can stand in for them. 

For LTW to be truly on the Grey Council, and to have used a 'shadowself' laid up in Edinburgh, it would mean that Eb doesn't trust Harry with this information.  Or, that he doesn't trust conveying this information over magical messaging.

In Amber series, the 'magical messaging' can get wiretapped.  So, Eb may be aware of this in part, and he has to lie to Harry during these conversations to keep the wiretappers uncertain.  It also would give more meaning for the group to meet in person as opposed to conversing long distances.

[Rasins]

Green lightning split the sky, erupting with such a burst of thunder that the ground shook. Instead of fading, though, the thunder grew
louder as more and more strokes of lightning flared out from the area of sky where Lea’s gem had exploded into light.
Then a sheet of a dozen separate green bolts of lightning fell all at the same time onto the ground of the ball court twenty yards away,
blowing smoking craters in the ground.
It took my dazzled eyes a few seconds to recover from that, and when they did, my heart almost stopped.
Standing on the ball court were twelve figures.
Twelve people in shapeless grey robes. Grey cloaks. Grey hoods.
And every single one of them held a wizard’s staff in one hand.
The Grey Council.
The Grey Council!
The nearest figure was considerably shorter than me and stout, but he stood with his feet planted as if he intended to move the world.
He lifted his staff, smote it on the ground, then boomed, “Remember Archangel!” He spoke a single, resonating word as he thrust the tip
of the implement at the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night.

Here is the description from Changes.  So no help there. LOL

[raidem]

Twelve people in shapeless grey robes. Grey cloaks. Grey hoods.

This 'shapeless' reads to me as the cloaks were deliberately hiding their identifying features.

[thevickers]

I did post this in another thread, but still seems relevant here as well. Let's call one of the GC as a member of the Denarius. We, of course, don't know the extent of the Denarius' plans or even all of their enemies. Who's to say they didn't have a reason to get back at the Red Court? And of course the theory I floated in the other thread.

[raidem]

Well wojl says that Harry could have called upon LaSalle and the fallen for help in changes.  Since jim mentioned that, it is consistent for the fallen to be largely opposed to RCV.

[thevickers]

well I agree but for a different reason. Yes, he has said, it was Mab, Lash, or kemmler. But only as far as the options that had the power to help him, not because those were the ones that had beef with RCV.