Cold Case - Molly's Truth

[raidem]

I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
No.  Mab was not the first Mab.

Jim's words. Mab was not the first Mab.

And please do not put words in my mouth

I see no reason to believe anyone that raidem thinks is Mab is, has ever been, or ever will be Mab,

It stemmed from your suggestion/presumption as to who I think Mab is, has ever been, or ever will be.  One clear part of the theory is that Mab is simply the historical one, not Mab, not Molly. That is the case where your presumption rubbed against my statement.

[raidem]

Frankly the sheer glut of threads all about the same thing is part of the reason I haven't participated in this section of the forums in weeks. Part of me is starting to regret putting my two cents into this one, now.

I started to delete some of the Murphy related threads.  Do you have suggestions you would have me delete?

[Mr. Death]

I started to delete some of the Murphy related threads.  Do you have suggestions you would have me delete?

I haven't really been reading any of them enough to have developed a preference.

[jonas]

You're the one who claims she is, the burden of proof is on you.

So no, I don't have to prove it lol.

No, you said, Molly isn't starborn, that's an affirmative statement, bring more than your disbelieve to the table.
I actually said 'I see this' as in my perspective, you acclaimed acritically she was not... You might wanna Lawyer up if your gonna try to speak legalese on my ass I tell you what lol

[jonas]

Jonas have you read the short story? I recall someone saying they hadn't read the short story.  That may have been on Discord though.

Molly's? yea only once but yea... why?

[Arjan]

No, you said, Molly isn't starborn, that's an affirmative statement, bring more than your disbelieve to the table.
I actually said 'I see this' as in my perspective, you acclaimed acritically she was not... You might wanna Lawyer up if your gonna try to speak legalese on my ass I tell you what lol

There was never any vague clue in the books or in woj or in the rpg or anywhere else Butcher even suggesting something that could remotely point to Molly being starborn so as far as a negative can be proven it is. 

Jim Butcher will come with some time travel thing, he already did in cold days, but it will be subtle and it would be the very near past. Vadderung's words in Cold Days are an indication. Any theory that posulates time travel of years is most probably not true.

Any time travel theory that postulates decades or centuries of time travel is plain crazy

[jonas]

There was never any vague clue in the books or in woj or in the rpg or anywhere else Butcher even suggesting something that could remotely point to Molly being starborn so as far as a negative can be proven it is. 

That proves only your own sight on what is there. Molly's worth has been alluded to in multiple ways the most direct is how she was born, after being part of some unknown plot/ritual saved by the love of a good man, ect. I described BOTH Harry and Molly if you caught that. The alignment that makes a Starborn might be shown loosely right there...

Jim Butcher will come with some time travel thing, he already did in cold days, but it will be subtle and it would be the very near past. Vadderung's words in Cold Days are an indication. Any theory that posulates time travel of years is most probably not true.

Ermm.. you know if GP was the first choice then the eventual time travel will go back from this point in time vaguely 13 years sooo, that's actually about given here.

Any time travel theory that postulates decades or centuries of time travel is plain crazy

get ready for a crazy F'n book then.

[raidem]

GOOGLE AUDIENCE: “Silly Dresden Files question. I remember in Cold Days the shenanigans regarding the origin of Demonreach. And can we expect more time shenanigans in future books?”

JB: “More time shenanigans? SIR, one of the Laws of Magic states that you cannot mess with time like that! OF COURSE, there will be more time shenanigans! I only established the seven Laws of Magic so I could have Dresden methodically break them one by one!”

[Arjan]

That proves only your own sight on what is there. Molly's worth has been alluded to in multiple ways the most direct is how she was born, after being part of some unknown plot/ritual saved by the love of a good man, ect.

Her worth certainly but that has nothing to do with being starborn. We have no clues about that. Nothing special about her time or place of birth for example.

I described BOTH Harry and Molly if you caught that. The alignment that makes a Starborn might be shown loosely right there...
Ermm.. you know if GP was the first choice then the eventual time travel will go back from this point in time vaguely 13 years sooo, that's actually about given here.
get ready for a crazy F'n book then.

Not really. The choice was thirteen years ago but after that both worlds went their own way and the people on both worlds are different peoples with different histories. Mirror Mirror is more like traveling to alternative worlds, not time travel as such.

[Quantus]

Jumping back to the boundaries on Fae and the limits of Literal requirements on statements to be true:  We know that their statements do not have to be perfectly literal or perfectly true. 

1) They can be honestly Incorrect, as with the infamous "She Lies" bit at the end of GS
2) They can be open to degrees interpretation, as when various sidhe have called Lea the 2nd most powerful Winter fae next to Mab, despite the existence of Mother Winter
3) I contend they can also be wildly skewed by perspective (which may no really be district from #1).  My example here is when Lea described Mab as being on par with an Archangel; by all objective measures (and WOJ) we have this is simply not correct, but if you add on the sort of Absolute Power Mab holds over all Fae, between her Will translating to Winter Law and her sharing the ability to Draft all the Wyld-fae when necessary.  To a fae there is a lot less of a gap between the Mab and an Archangel than there might be to something outside of her Authority. 

[peregrine]

No, you said, Molly isn't starborn, that's an affirmative statement, bring more than your disbelieve to the table.
I actually said 'I see this' as in my perspective, you acclaimed acritically she was not... You might wanna Lawyer up if your gonna try to speak legalese on my ass I tell you what lol

"I see this" as your perspective does not absolve you from needing to support it.  And no, it's a negative statement, since I am arguing against what you affirmed, and have yet to provide any evidence to back up aside from her being the daughter of Michael and Charity.  So it's not really legalese lol  You made the statement "Molly is Starborn."  Back it up.  Until you do, I get to default to "No she isn't."

[raidem]

I'm on pregrine side on starborn issue.  I wonder though if proximity to Harry is making his allies mini starborn.

[Arjan]

I'm on pregrine side on starborn issue.  I wonder though if proximity to Harry is making his allies mini starborn.

That would make Susan and Lucio super starborn.

[raidem]

Not really. They were only briefly with him throughout the series.  That is what I mean by proximity.

Proximity over time, over important events.

Wheel of time.
There is a series, I forget exactly, that the main character does this to his allies.  Author died. I think sanderson finished the series.

This actually makes Murphy and Thomas, aside from mister and mouse and Bob some of the strongest ministarborn.

[Arjan]

Not really. They were only briefly with him throughout the series.  That is what I mean by proximity.

Proximity over time, over important events.

Wheel of time.
There is a series, I forget exactly, that the main character does this to his allies.  Author died. I think sanderson finished the series.

This actually makes Murphy and Thomas, aside from mister and mouse and Bob some of the strongest ministarborn.

It is easy to confuse cause and result if you are too obsessed with time travel. Harry is so powerful because of his association with MSTR