Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach

[raidem]

This is what set the discussion up.  Multiple arguments ensued.

[4:06 AM] Godslayer: So has anyone put forth the theory that the attack on Demonreach in Cold Days was an attempt at a superpowered Darkhallow rite?
[4:16 AM] khadgar567: i can go with that
[4:16 AM] Godslayer: Of course, that begs the question: Who was looking to cash in on it?
[4:16 AM] khadgar567: as you are sacrifacing bunch of outsiders to empower your self instead of ghosts
[4:17 AM] Godslayer: Yeah, I imagine you'd be the most powerful being on earth if you pulled it off
[4:18 AM] khadgar567: lets not forget you are drawing outsiders across time to fuel the ritual not just presint time
[[4:19 AM] Godslayer: one thing I'm amazed about Harry not bringing up is: where the hell did all of the outsiders in Cold Days come from?
[4:20 AM] khadgar567: so there is third party going on in the cold days
[4:21 AM] khadgar567: and i bet they attack in peace talks to as nearly all big wigs in setting are in the same location same time
[4:22 AM] khadgar567: its kinda begs to be  exploited by some one
[4:23 AM] khadgar567: fall out would be epic as rapid change of managment and desire to get blind revenge will open huge oppurtunity to pop a dark hallow cap on whole cast
[9:33 AM] -EG-: The Darkhallow took a lot of prep time and very specific acts of Necromancy to prepare the intended recipient to be around that vortex. And the energy that was going to 'destroy' DR and set everything loose was set to hit on November First, not Halloween. The opportunity to take in that kind of power would have no longer applied.(edited)
[9:39 AM] Vicissitude: Hmm, that's a bummer.
[9:39 AM] Vicissitude: Though it is a work of fiction. I'll bet Jim could have found a loophole :v
[9:42 AM] -EG-: Jim is certainly creative, but his rules and world tend to stand up to itself well. Which is definitely one of the reasons why it's a popular series. Harry gets a creative loophole because he's the main character. And even those are within parameters.
[9:44 AM] raidem: When it comes to the exact date it really doesn't depend on Earth's calendar
[9:44 AM] raidem: It depends on the Cosmic Halloween
[9:46 AM] raidem: I mean we have an inexact calendar as it is, with a leap year added to the calendar to adjust it to be more accurate reflection of Earth's orbit around the sun
[9:46 AM] raidem: So, I'd say it was still Cosmic Halloween
[9:47 AM] Vicissitude: Yeah, like the bloodline curse wasn't literally at midnight on that night
[9:47 AM] raidem: the conjunction was still active
[9:47 AM] raidem: And Maeve and Lily DID die
[9:47 AM] Boustrophedonic: Harry gets some loopholes and wiggle room because he's literally a cosmic monkey wrench in the war against the outsiders
[9:47 AM] raidem: so that proves Cosmic Halloween was enforced

[raidem]

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[Kindler]

Ah, okay, that context explains the hair-splitting then. Some take quantum foam-sized items of minutiae as a hill to die on (not saying your'e one of them, Raidem), so I had kind of figured it was something like that. I retract my previous sarcasm.

[Quantus]

OK, this is one of those topics that long warped my brain but eventually I came to an explanation I liked, though it does require an unproven assumption of the Nature of Demonreach.  But without it, there does not appear to be any need to involve Chronomancy at all, which ultimately is what foiled the plan by forewarning Harry&co.

I think Maeve's plan was to trigger the Banefire on Nov. 1st, but the Trans-Dimensional Nature of Demonreach required her to "toss the rock" from Oct.31. 

We know Demonreach is a prison in Time as well as Space, so Here's the Assumption:  Demonreach traps the inmates in a Perpetual Halloween.  They are in "Stasis" and vulnerable, with the Banefire hanging over them (like a more literal Doom of Damocles, ironically), which is what it would take for the Banefire to actually kill them as Vadderung initially described.  So if Maeve wanted to actually launch an attack on the Well itself (the magical construct) she could only reach it in Space&Time from the Island on the actual Day.  However, then she is setting off a Nuke that she happens to be standing on, which is suicidal for all involved.  This is why a Trans-temporal attack was required, it acted as a delay.  But had she simply lobbed the attack from November 1st it could have hit the island but would not have "reached" the Well itself.


Support:

-Per Bob/Alfred the Well is a Prison in Time as well as Space, and maybe even higher dimensions (ie parallel worlds?)

-The British Inmate raves about the inmates being in "Stasis" and how the presence of the Warden "Buggers that up entirely."  This could be taken to mean that the inmates only experience the passage of time in the direct presence of the Warden.  Functionally it would make sense for the Well to go out of it's way to facilitate interaction since it's the Warden's responsibility to Determine if they should ever be Released. 

-Vadderung indicated that the Inmates would not survive the Banefire.  But Maeve (and Harry) were talking like they assumed the inmate's would survive.

-The Chronomantic nature of the attack itself was a huge tactical liability without any other (obvious) benefit.



Counter-argument:  The main counter to this idea is that holding the inmates in perpetual Halloween could be MORE dangerous rather than less.  For the same reason that some Immortals go out and Play on Halloween while others hide, they are more vulnerable on Halloween but it is also the only day they are capable of Change enough to gain new Power.  This is not so much an argument for why it would not work as it is one side of in-world the Risk Assessment that the Well's designer(s) likely had. 

[raidem]

I'm thinking on this...
I can post more of the discussion too.

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[9:47 AM] Boustrophedonic: Same with Elaine
[9:48 AM] raidem: So -eg- was incorrect
[9:48 AM] raidem: remember important to be 'accurate'  with your "that kind of power would have no longer applied."(edited)
[9:50 AM] -EG-: No one said the conjunction wasn't still active. The power Maeve and Lily were building up was slated to hit on November First. Because if they were going to hit the island on the actual Halloween they would risk the Banefire permanently killing everything, or many things, in the Well. But if done on the next day, then most of that stuff can get through unscathed...or at least return.
[9:50 AM] raidem: I'd suggest that the Outsider's present at the assault of Demonreach would be in an ideal place to assume the newly freed mantles in the chance they were freed by Demonreach's bane fire
[9:52 AM] Vicissitude: On the other hand, there's a LOT of power locked up in Demonreach. It's possible that whoever absorbed them could survive the banefire
[9:54 AM] -EG-: Or die trying. I don't believe any mortal could absorb all that power without destroying themselves. And mantle holders, while able to add bits here and there, are also subject to 'limits' on how much power they can add. Can't add and overflow the cup basically.
[9:56 AM] raidem: It still doesn't matter about November 1st if it still is part of Cosmic Halloween. And we don't know precisely when it was meant to hit. And I mean precisely.(edited)
[9:59 AM] raidem: If Demonreach was hit on actual Cosmic Halloween, then the mantles would live, the entities wielding them would die.  The banefire would do something we don't know, perhaps change some of the mantles into background radiation.(edited)
[10:00 AM] -EG-: Kill them.
[10:00 AM] -EG-: Because that's what Vadderung says it would do. What it was designed to do.
[10:00 AM] raidem: Duh.  Which is what I said.  I'm talking about the mantles.
[10:01 AM] raidem: They just don't die. They change forms, or pass to another.(edited)
[10:02 AM] -EG-: Except there is even less reason to assume everything, or even anything down there holds a mantle.
[10:02 AM] raidem: Jim has a liberal definition of mantles.  Essentially he has said changelings get their mantles for free. So, he has a generic case of mantles and a more precise one too.  Vadderung has said, masks, mantles...implying they are same thing.(edited)
[10:05 AM] -EG-: Yeah. And only one of those matter for the purposes of power transferal. The precise one. Not the liberal application of the word like even Eb uses when describing Harry's acquisition of Demonreach. Which is not a mantle of power, it's a mantle of responsibility. When Meryl died she didn't pass on a 'troll' mantle to anyone. So saying there are 'liberal' uses of the term only further serves to illustrate that it matters most when the specific application of a mantle of power is used.
[10:06 AM] Boustrophedonic: Not everything is a mantle. Unless there's like. Six kings of summer and winter trapped deep in Demonreach or something
[10:07 AM] raidem: I tend to think once you get to the level of being imprisoned on Demonreach, you get to entities that if killed do have mantles of powers that will pass.  That power doesn't just go to zero.  We know that per Mother WInter.
[10:08 AM] Boustrophedonic: The only known transferrable mantles are the six queens
[10:08 AM] -EG-: No one said it gets destroyed. That doesn't mean it has to go to anyone specific either. It can simply go into the void, ether, cosmic essence...whatever you wanna call it. That's still change.(edited)
[10:09 AM] -EG-: Dispersal is change. Not wholesale destruction.
[10:09 AM] raidem: That "it" is the mantle. It can be dispersed.  It can be never again worn.(edited)
[10:10 AM] -EG-: No that 'it' is the power that being held. A mantle is power that goes to other beings specifically because it was designed to do that. Forged that way.
[10:10 AM] Boustrophedonic: Yeah, like when Aurora intended to pass on her mantle's power to the entirety of the Winter court to upset the balance
[10:10 AM] raidem: Thank you.
[10:11 AM] Boustrophedonic: That was meant to be a reply to EG's message after my message
[10:11 AM] raidem: It applies to mine.
[10:11 AM] -EG-: It really doesn't. Because she HAD a mantle.
[10:12 AM] -EG-: If random Fae X had been shanked on that slab, the balance would not have been tossed aside and thrown into chaos just cuz his power got added to Winter.
[10:12 AM] raidem: The reason her mantle went to power is because it went via teh stone.
[10:12 AM] raidem: Otherwise it would have stayed a mantle.
[10:14 AM] raidem: Ideas create mantles.
[10:14 AM] ZQKing: hur dur mantles
[10:14 AM] -EG-: And if a wizard was killed on the stone his power would have gone into Winter too. That doesn't mean the wizard holds a mantle. If he or she dies normally the power they hold doesn't then reconstitute into another being. What you were ascribing to the things in the Well are mantles of power, that even if the entities died that power would still be transferred. There is no reason to assume that.(edited)
[10:14 AM] ZQKing: am i participating yet
[10:15 AM] raidem: "mantles, power" they could be 'eaten' by the Outsiders for the purposes of the main argument to which you argued couldn't happen(edited)
[10:16 AM] -EG-: Based on what? What Outsider has been showed to 'eat' magic and add it to their power?
[10:17 AM] -EG-: Even if it was still 'cosmic Halloween' it wouldn't necessarily matter, Outsiders are from OUTSIDE. Who's to say they absolutely can add to their power the same way those in reality can.
[10:17 AM] raidem: For one, immortals eat power on halloween.  And I guess YOU can absolutely say they CAN'T add to their power the same way those in reality can.
[10:18 AM] raidem: I mean we see in White Knight a Outsider possess Vittorio. So, he wears that Outsider.(edited)
[10:19 AM] Vicissitude: I think that was more of a transfer than an absorbtion. A give and take
[10:20 AM] raidem: It was  a instance of something while I think.  WOJL has it though that HWWBefore in Cold Day being Vittorio was a better idea than what Jim had. (Vittorio was fan idea)(edited)
[10:23 AM] raidem: We see HWWBefore 'mantlelike' escape after he gets shot by Harry at the end of Cold Days.  Compare the mantlelike behavior vs. the Ladies.

[10:25 AM] -EG-: Except I didn't say they absolutely could not. Just because you decided to make an absolute statement like "mantles, power" they could be 'eaten' by the Outsiders for the purposes of the main argument" doesn't mean that when I say there's no reason to assume that out of hand, that i'm saying it's utterly impossible. That's not how it works.
The totality of the situation suggests, more likely, that the Ladies were going to loose the Well on November First (post 'cosmic' Halloween) because it would give those beings a much better chance of surviving the Banefire which would normally kill them, especially if it was on 'cosmic' Halloween. Then it became your position that it wouldn't matter when it was, because the mantles of those creatures would survive...again...an assertion you made that it was just a given, despite the fact that nothing (let alone most of the things there) can just out and out be assumed to hold a mantle of power that would survive and transfer.
It's not a 'mantle-like' escape on the part of the Walker, anymore than a Demon getting killed in the mortal world is a 'mantle-like' escape back to the Nevernever. In both instances a body needs to be provided for them to be on this plane in the first place. That doesn't mean the power transfers to and fro, making new 'Walker' and 'demons'. It's still the same creature in the end.
[10:26 AM] raidem: I never made the position that "it wouldn't matter when it was, because the mantle of those creatures would survive"
[10:27 AM] -EG-: "If Demonreach was hit on actual Cosmic Halloween, then the mantles would live, the entities wielding them would die."
[10:27 AM] raidem: so no "assertion you made that it was just a given, despite the fact that nothing"
[10:27 AM] -EG-: You gave them all a mantle, more or less, out of hand.
[10:28 AM] raidem: I deemed it reasonable that they have a "power, mantle" of themself that survives their death that something can come along to gobble up and increase the consumers power by doing so.  that is the 'mantle' definition I'm using.  So when I say mantle, you say power. I think we are using different words for same/similar definition.(edited)
[10:31 AM] raidem: I have an enlarged definition for mantle.  You have a restricted one.  It largely arises from Jim's use of it in a variety of contexts.(edited)

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[10:34 AM] raidem: We don't know exactly what happened to HWWBefore in Cold Days.  Mac believed it was 'killable.'  I'd say Harry did what Mac reasonably expected for Harry to do.  I mean Harry shot HWWBefore on Halloween with Winter magic, with soulfire, with wizard magic, with starborn power.
[10:35 AM] raidem: If it really was a escape back to the nevernever, all HWWBefore had to do was pull a Tiny and transfer over right then and there.  Instead, he retreated toward the direction his troops retreated.
[10:39 AM] -EG-: The escape to the Nevernever bit was about Demons and how they 'die' but don't really die. You called it a 'mantle-like' escape on the Walker's part. I said it's no more a mantle like escape then a Demon who's body is destroyed here is a mantle like escape. The body is destroyed, they retreat their essence back. In a Demon's case it was to the NN, in the Walker's it was 'away', back the Outside like HHWBefore when Harry 'killed' him. Either way, the point was if it held a mantle of power like the Queens, then it could have simply found the next 'eligible' host. But demons don't do that and neither do Walkers. They go back to the Outside and have to be re-summoned once more.(edited)
[10:51 AM] raidem: When I say mantlelike, I proposed the possibility that a HWWBefore actually died and his mantle passed in a similar way to the Ladies.  That said, your description of what occurred is more likely to be true.  That is why I described it as 'mantlelike' escape.  It was his 'power/mantle' that was escaping because it was at risk.  It very well may  have different rules than what governs the passing of mantles that we have seen with the Ladies and been told takes place with the other Queens.  I allow for the possibility that HWWBefore has a 'mortal' from Outside, or concquered Inside for that matter, that wears the mantle.(edited)
[10:54 AM] raidem: It really depends on the nature of the Outside. It is an entire civilization that exists in Outside that is threatened by our Universe. per WOJL(edited)
[11:03 AM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Which WoJ is that?
[11:34 AM] raidem: It's the one where Jim mentions writing from Outsider's point of view.
[11:44 AM] raidem: There is also the WOJL that suggests ideas creating mantles so there is yet another description of Jim using 'mantle' not fitting @-EG-  limited defintion(edited)
[11:55 AM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: I'm looking at the website and not seeing it which is why I figured I would ask.  I'm not seeing one on the creation of mantles either, other than someone asked if the Erlking could make a Wyld Knight mantle and Jim says he's not powerful enough.
[11:56 AM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Interestingly it looks like Elder is a mantle for the fae, so EG is likely mantle powered.
[11:56 AM] raidem: yep
[11:56 AM] raidem: I'll have to dig deeper later on for both
[11:57 AM] raidem: There are many transcriptions that get deleted on the forum from which the WOJ compilation gets some of its source material from(edited)
[11:58 AM] raidem: And the WOJ compilation doesn't get updated
[12:15 PM] Godslayer: @-EG-  Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the attack on Demonreach two fold? The Ladies were attacking the doorway, but the boats hitting the beach was the real attack
[12:16 PM] Godslayer: If that attack had worked, the island would have blown during Halloween, which would have made all of the creatures trapped  below mortal and someone could have then harnassed all of that power into a huge Darkhallow ritual
[12:16 PM] Godslayer: As for prep time, there were three boats all running rituals at the time.
[12:17 PM] raidem: Yep
[12:17 PM] -EG-: The barges were support for the real attack but also a diversion.
 "The Walker was just the distraction," I breathed. "Dammit, they're not pulling that same trick on me this time." I turned to them and said, "I think someone's up at the top of the hill, and whatever they're doing, it ain't good. Stay right behind me. Come on." -Cold days
[12:17 PM] Godslayer: Yeah, but I sort of think that was just Harry's assumption
[12:18 PM] Godslayer: We later learn that the attack by the ladies was no real threat(edited)
[12:18 PM] raidem: Maeve wasn't privy to Outsider's ultimate plans
[12:18 PM] -EG-: Just because it wasn't a threat doesn't mean it wasn't the main attack.
[12:18 PM] raidem: She was privy to her plans
[12:18 PM] Godslayer: Yeah, Maeve was just a pawn
[12:18 PM] -EG-: DR chose to act the way it did, the Ladies not knowing that is irrelevant. They were the climax, they were in the 'circle'.
[12:19 PM] Godslayer: If the boats had touched the beach, the island would have blown, I call that a main attack
[12:19 PM] Godslayer: the ladies on the other hand never had a chance
[12:19 PM] Godslayer: Why would the real big bad let Maeve do anything?
[12:19 PM] Godslayer: She was just a pawn
[12:20 PM] -EG-: She's still essential to the ritual otherwise why use her at all.
[12:20 PM] Godslayer: I think they were really just trying to get rid of Mab
[12:20 PM] -EG-: "This doesn't make any sense," I said. "The ritual would still need a platform, and that would take time and work to set up-at least a day. It would show. They haven't even gotten onto the island y-" Then the truth hit me in a flash. "The barges," I said. "They set up a ritual platform on one of the barges. It's the only thing that makes sense."
"The waters of the lake would diminish the power they could draw from the ley lines running beneath it," the Erlking said.
"Yeah," I said. "That's why they're assaulting the shore. They're going to force a breach and then run the barge aground on the island. That'll put them in direct contact with the ley line." -Cold Days
[12:21 PM] -EG-: So they are still being used as a support, a connection to the Ladies on the hill. A combined effort to get the end result.(edited)
[12:21 PM] Godslayer: That doesn't track
[12:21 PM] Godslayer: The ladies couldn't access anything on the barges
[12:22 PM] Godslayer: they were behind a circle
[12:22 PM] -EG-: They could still tap into the ley line.
[12:22 PM] Godslayer: the barges hit the beach and tap into the ley, then the ritual on the barge goes off and boom(edited)
[12:23 PM] raidem: You got it right.
[12:23 PM] raidem: Harry HAD to defeat the barges landing and tapping the power on Demonreach.(edited)
[12:23 PM] Godslayer: And I can think of only two reasons to do the attack on Halloween
[12:23 PM] Godslayer: #1. You actually want to destory all of the dark things in Demonreach
[12:23 PM] Godslayer: #2. You want their power
[12:24 PM] -EG-: #3 you want to set them loose and let them destroy the world.
[12:24 PM] Godslayer: Hell, if the barges had hit, the ladies would have both died too
[12:24 PM] raidem: We know the banefire would have killed them. Their power/mantle would have been released to be gobbled up.(edited)
[12:24 PM] Godslayer: #3 isn't valid. They would have all died
[12:25 PM] Godslayer: and they would have never come back
[12:25 PM] Godslayer: Because Halloween
[12:25 PM] raidem: Their power could still be gobbled up.(edited)
[12:26 PM] Godslayer: I see no reason why now that the Darkhallow is out there someone couldn't be trying to improve on it
[12:26 PM] Godslayer: Could be Cowl. Could be Mavra. Could be a lot of people.
[12:26 PM] Godslayer: Could have just been the Outsiders
[12:27 PM] raidem: Remember the Wild Hunt was out there running around.  Last time we know they were running around, it was halloween in Dead Beat.
[12:27 PM] Godslayer: But man, there were a fuckton of Outsiders on earth that night and that's never been explained
[12:27 PM] raidem: Very true.  They had mortals on those barges too.  So they have a source of magic users.  I think the Fomor have an alliance with them to topple Winter/Summer.  Maybe, Maybe not.  They just think they can use Outsiders for this limited purpose then come to at the last minute to stand against the Outside.(edited)
[12:32 PM] raidem: Another reason to support the idea that those prisoners within Demonreach have 'mantles/power'.  They exist here. They haven't been consigned to oblivion yet, unless oblivion is Demonreach but I'd guess not.  If there is an idea of those prisoners in Demonreach in the minds of humans, then 'they-in the most encompassing definition' couldn't be destroyed. Their idea would exist so the potential for something to assume this idea, their mask/mantle (in the nature of WOJL on human ideas creating mantles) remains.(edited)

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[12:44 PM] -EG-: @Godslayer The spell from the barges blow up the island and the top half of North America. Does it mean it automatically can get past the barrier or starlight that was the 'defense' circle the Ladies and their retinue were in? Harry's limited Intellectus could not get past it. Hell nothing not 'made of the island' or connected to it could. And Demonreach is susceptible to 'injury' via the destruction of it's physical form.
"Also, people have a few things wrong about the Gatekeeper and the island.  The Gatekeeper did not hurt Demonreach.  Gatekeeper has been on the island a couple of times, and it’s never gone well, but he didn’t cause Demonreach’s limp.  That’s the work of the glacier that carved out Lake Michigan."
So if the Outsiders blow the island more or less to hell, and weaken DR to point where it can no longer sustain a credible defense, the Well could have still been intact behind the circle. Hence the dual assault. Barges blow up DR's 'body', and since the amount of energy needed to do that is enormous enough to need to tap into a ley line, they take the upper midwest with it...and then the Ladies inside the circle finish it off the weakened remnants if the explosion is not enough to do the trick, setting forth the things in the Well that were behind that circle now and leaving the Ladies to contend with the 'Banefire', which Odin considered a dubious proposition in and of itself.(edited)
[12:44 PM] -EG-: I get Maeve was a pawn, but why are the Outsiders the ones with all the answers in this scenario that they knew precisely what to do and how to do it that it would have succeeded in this way? They couldn't even anticipate Mab having a backup to her backup.
To say nothing of the fact that, you're willing to say the barges were the main assault, the island goes boom for the purposes of 'eating' all that power, even killing the Ladies and everything there. So I ask you...who exactly is left in the general vicinity to eat that power? An explosion that was going to take the upper quadrant of the country with it and 'kill' all these newly mortal things in the Well...who is gonna be around within a thousand miles to 'take in' all this energy precisely?(edited)
[12:50 PM] Godslayer: That was my question :smiley:
[12:51 PM] Godslayer: It could have been the Outsider that Harry was fighting
[12:51 PM] Godslayer: Maybe someone in the Nevernever?
[12:52 PM] Godslayer: It could also be that the extent of the explosion was exaggerated
[12:52 PM] -EG-: That Outsider got merc'd by a bullet to the head, however 'enhanced' that bullet was, I don't know why it's body would have survived such a cataclysmic explosion but the things in the Well would not. And I don't think someone is going to drop in from the Nevernever into now the middle of a lake with nothing around it.
[12:53 PM] Godslayer: The person doing the rite could have already been in the nevernever
[12:53 PM] Godslayer: obviously I don't have any details
[12:53 PM] Godslayer: but if they weren't doing a rite... a lot of what happened doesn't make sense
[12:55 PM] -EG-: It does if, again, the spell goes off after 'cosmic' Halloween (sometime November First) and sets everything loose to destroy reality as we know it. The Outsiders want everything to 'end'. However that comes about. This is their only stated goal so far. So if that result is achieved, what do they care how.
[12:56 PM] -EG-: You think Vadderung, arguably the most well informed person in the whole series this side of like, Uriel, would not have maybe mentioned that possibility to Dresden in their discussion?
[12:57 PM] -EG-: "by the way you don't have to just worry about everything blowing up and those things being set loose, someone could conceivably be looking to gobble up that power with a secondary rite?"
[12:58 PM] -EG-: Because that strikes me as a reality ending threat of its own worth noting.
[1:10 PM] raidem: Vadderung didn't consider the bane fire dubious.  he considered freeing the entities within dubious as they'd be destroyed by the banefire. This still allows for their power to be at stake post banefire.(edited)
[1:11 PM] -EG-: "leaving the Ladies to contend with the 'Banefire', which Odin considered a dubious proposition in and of itself" so that's not even remotely what I sad.
[1:11 PM] raidem: I don't think the inner ward would have been much protection post barges landing and setting off their ritual
[1:14 PM] raidem: Vadderung didn't say : "leaving the Ladies to contend with the 'Banefire', which Odin considered a dubious proposition in and of itself" you did.  You mistakenly interpreted and paraphrased what he said.(edited)
[1:14 PM] -EG-: "Idiots," he breathed. "Even if they could defeat the banefire . . ."
[1:14 PM] Godslayer: @-EG-  The problem I see with that analysis is that it assumes that the opposition is dumb. Lily and Maeve had no chance of getting past Demonreach
[1:14 PM] raidem: you are saying 'they' is Ladies; vadderung knows 'they' isn't limited to Ladies nor just to what Ladies are going to do within the circle.  Vadderung's 'they' includes the entire operation and the goal of the operation(edited)
[1:16 PM] Godslayer: If the Barges had hit the beach, the island would have blown on Halloween... and Maeves assault had no chance... so what was the endgame?
[1:16 PM] -EG-: Yes, i'm saying in what I laid forth they would be the ones left to deal with it. 'They' doesn't really matter in this instance because 'whoever' was left to deal with it, Vadderung felt it was a dubious proposal. Which is why I said it to support the notion that we can't out of hand trust the Outsiders were fully competent and wholly able to handle events anymore than Maeve was.
[1:17 PM] raidem: Yeah, I think @-EG- is disregarding the impact the barges would have had if they did land.  It would have been a near game over.  HWWBefore goal was to do that which is why he suggested Mab would be irrelevant in a few days. AKA dead.(edited)
[1:18 PM] Godslayer: It would have been a game over... and keep in mind, Kringle and Erlking helped defeat the barges... they didn't give a damn about Maeve in the circle
[1:18 PM] raidem: Yep.
[1:19 PM] Godslayer: The Walker was on Team Barges... Cat Sith was on Team Barges.... the army of Outsiders was on team Barges
[1:19 PM] raidem: When I'm arguing though, @-EG- digs in his heels.  He won't stop. Trust me.(edited)
[1:20 PM] Godslayer: EG is always spot on in his arguments
[1:20 PM] raidem: LOL. I've had quite a few arguments with him. And he wasn't then and not now.
[1:21 PM] Godslayer: I'll politely disagree.  :smiley:
[1:22 PM] raidem: It's ok.  He argues well except when it gets to mantles and time travel.
[1:22 PM] Godslayer: Most likely we are all wrong
[1:22 PM] raidem: He has blind spots.  He is exceptional with finding WOJ's now though.(edited)
[1:22 PM] Godslayer: BUT... I do think there is more to the attack on Demonreach then what we've been assuming
[1:23 PM] raidem: I think there is a time travel army, agents operating too in background.
[1:23 PM] Godslayer: And even if you don't agree. There is still the question of who was behind it all
[1:25 PM] raidem: Remember there IS a multiverse in the background so we can't assume just one boring reality at play.
[1:27 PM] raidem: Right now, I'm irked with him. :smiley: Therefore we are arguing.  It reminds me of the good ole days.  And yes, he is a masterful debater.  We annoy each other greatly at times.(edited)
[1:31 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Literally was just reading the WoJ on the cosmology, so this one was interesting (along with the Jedi would be scary in the multiverse idea):
[1:31 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: "Jim: 3) Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring."
[1:33 PM] raidem: AH... Eg post just disappeared
[1:34 PM] raidem: I think HWWBefore alleged it would be a clean up/mop up operation after the barges/Demonreach gambit which is why I described it as 'near game over.'(edited)
[1:37 PM] raidem: "continuum of possibility created by free will." So continuum created by free will creates parallel realities in whole or part to also include all/some mantles that exist in part of these realities.  the Hulk exists somewhere, his mantle exists... hercules mantle exists (refashioned into hulk?)(edited)
[1:43 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Two things:  A) the continuum is based in human choice.  Pretty standard multiverse theory that each individual choice spins off a new universe which we will see in action in Mirror, Mirror.  B) The implication seems to be that Hercules is dead, his mantle would be otherwise unrecognizable unless basically the Hulk is fulfilling that role in modern times.  Especially due to belief granting things power.  I still don't really see a basis for creating new mantles.  It's left to the imagination that perhaps mab+ would be able to do it, but I don't see an indication where it has happened in the verse and we've seen it in book or WoJ.
[1:45 PM] -EG-: @Godslayer these are, again, the same people who didn't realize Mab had a backup to a backup.
My point still stands, the island blowing up right then and there can simply be part of the plan if the Ladies and the 'Well' are still intact behind that circle. The meat of the island blows, they are left safe-ish up there and can complete the attack. It makes plenty of sense in its own way as an alternative. The assault does not have to be centered around 'gobbling' up all that power in order to be 'sensible'. Outsiders being less than 100% perfectly competent does the trick. A 'shielding' of those on the hill does the trick. And never once is the threat of the power being 'eaten' or absorbed by anyone brought up, either by Harry or the extremely reliable resources he consults and allies himself with before and during the battle (Odin/Kringle, Erlking).
And since there is no reason to assume the description of the explosion was 'overstated', then there is still no one around for hundreds if not thousands of miles to gobble up this supposed vortex of power left lingering there. The Nevernever also connects to this world. An explosion of that magnitude would almost certainly impact anyone in the immediate vicinity on the other side, at a minimum enough to distract them from the task at hand, if not outright 'reshape' and screw up the layout in the NN they were currently in. Especially when most people presuppose the NN side of DR is connected to, and an integral part of it's construction.(edited)
[1:45 PM] -EG-: And why would this person be able to prepare a ritual in the NN and 'carry' it over to the smoking husk of the island? People point to how maybe the Eebs survived in the NN because the curse would not have penetrated, what's to say this supposed ritual is gonna be able to 'cross over' if your starting point is there? And again, even if it does, where is this person gonna literally, physically stand in order to finish in the mortal world? Nothing's left, even if you were granted the explosion being 'overstated' it certainly was going to take the whole island and surrounding area with it by your own belief.
So all in all, there are ways it can work that makes sense. It doesn't 'have' to be a secondary ritual and desire to 'eat' all that power for the goals to be achieved.
[1:56 PM] Godslayer: So what was the goal?
[1:56 PM] Godslayer: And whose goal was it?
[1:58 PM] Godslayer: @-EG-

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[2:00 PM] raidem: "And never once is the threat of the power being 'eaten' or absorbed by anyone brought up, either by Harry or the extremely reliable resources he consults and allies himself with before and during the battle (Odin/Kringle, Erlking)."   It's on Halloween.  Bob tells him immortals are mortal on Halloween.  Jim says to be on Earth makes one to some degree mortal.(edited)
[2:01 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Am I being overly simplistic when I say that the entire plan was a prison break?  Beyond that, from what you guys have put out here so far, I'm sure it was a nice secondary goal to take out the ladies and disrupt their mantles (by giving them to less experienced hosts if nothing else).  But that's all I took away from it initially.
[2:03 PM] raidem: Those beings, some if not most, within Demonreach are immortals.  Something was going to gobble them up.  The Wild Hunt, Erlking, and Kringle all enjoyed hunting on Halloween.  They don't get nothing from a hunt.  They got power.  And likely, they got some power from defeating the Outsiders.(edited)
[2:04 PM] raidem: Remember, the Walkers are usually summoned with a sacrifice.  So, they usually get a mortal 'mask' to more fully anchor them to this world.  That sacrifice is power that is part of our world and would be subject to being eaten by our world's rules.(edited)
[2:06 PM] raidem: HWWBefore said it was going to be over in a few days.  As in Mab would be dead I think.  He said some such things at Mac's place.  And, it would just be a mop up operation.  Whatever was planned, they wanted Mab out of the picture.(edited)
[2:08 PM] -EG-: @Godslayer To set forth the things in the Well, as was stated. Either via protection from the circle or some other method. Talking about the differences between when 'cosmic' Halloween ends has merit, but that's why I think 'November First' is key there. They plan to hit the spell after Halloween ends for better insulation or protection from the banefire. The barges hitting the island trigger the ritual, does it have to be instantaneous and right that second? Maybe, maybe not.

"So this . . . time bomb. It has to come from how close?" I asked.

"The shores of the lake, I suspect," Vadderung said. "The island itself would be the ideal location, but I doubt that it will cooperate with any such effort." -Cold Days

It's still considered a 'time bomb' even when they hit the shores. I can't find any other quote that describes an instantaneous 'game over' scenario that has been suggested here. They hit the island, the ritual locks and they fight, fuel, do whatever they do to build up the power with the ley line, then November First hits, gets past the Halloween problem, and 'boom'.(edited)
[2:10 PM] raidem: But you still say that it hits November First.  There is a fuzziness to that particular date given potential of time travel, and timetravel distortion used against Wild Hunt which Vadderung helps them escape.
[2:11 PM] raidem: The 'game over' scenario is what HWWBefore describes in a mop up operation.
[2:11 PM] raidem: Vadderung doesn't specifically say november 1st
[2:11 PM] -EG-: I'm not saying it, DR through Bob is saying it.
[2:11 PM] raidem: post Bob saying it.
[2:12 PM] raidem: I think I'm remember a bit now.
[2:12 PM] -EG-: "Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design. It began as something faint, but then, like an oncoming headache, started to throb into something larger and more noticeable. Where scarlet and blue light touched, there were ugly flares of energy-flares that I had been sensing ever since I'd gotten to the island. Before long, that scarlet pulse had spread to half the island, and then, abruptly, the screen went white.

Text at the bottom read, NOVEMBER 1.

"By tomorrow," I said. "Super. But I still don't see what is wrong, Bob."

"Energy hits it," Bob said. "A directed burst of energy, a whole lot of it. It unravels the whole containment spell Merlin laid down and triggers the fail-safe." -Cold Days
[2:13 PM] raidem: It was by tomorrow
[2:13 PM] raidem: 'by tomorrow' isn't hitting tomorrow
[2:13 PM] raidem: the screen went white by november 1st
[2:14 PM] -EG-: Suggesting that's when it happens. Because if it happens before, or after, then it never gets to November First or a different date would be used.
[2:15 PM] -EG-: The island blows up 'by tomorrow'.
[2:15 PM] raidem: by tomorrow is operative
[2:16 PM] -EG-: No it isn't, it's directly part of the conversation. 'by tomorrow' is not 'well anytime from this second to the next 24 hrs'. 'by tomorrow' means the energy will have reached critical mass at that point.
[2:16 PM] -EG-: That's why the date is used.
[2:16 PM] raidem: think like a fae.  the screen is white on november 1st.
[2:17 PM] raidem: so yes, demonreach is destroyed, banefire is released.
[2:17 PM] raidem: but that doesn't mean the screen isn't white before november 1st
[2:17 PM] raidem: which is 'by tomorrow'
[2:18 PM] -EG-: Bob sighed. "Someone hits the island with energy, Harry. But they've figured out how Merlin put this place together. They aren't attacking it in three dimensions. They're attacking in four. They're sending power through time as well as through space."

"So . . . I have to stop them from attacking the island tomorrow?"

"No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."

"Uh . . ."

"Look, the rock they're throwing hits tomorrow," Bob said. "But you have to stop them from throwing it at whatever point they're standing when they throw it." -Cold Days
[2:19 PM] raidem: that is stronger evidence but we are still at the definition of cosmic halloween
[2:19 PM] -EG-: They're throwing it from the barges. It builds up and hits the next day. Halloween no longer applies, stuff in the Well goes free.
[2:19 PM] Vicissitude: "See what I'm working with here!? I had to boil that down to throwing a rock before he got it!"
[2:20 PM] raidem: not quite, its tomorrow in chicago but not tomorrow in alaska
[2:20 PM] raidem: so we still have to deal with cosmic halloween
[2:21 PM] raidem: and the throwing a rock has to stop
[2:22 PM] raidem: the landing of the rock at that point it seems is unstoppable
[2:22 PM] -EG-: "How big a window do I have? When does Halloween night end?" I asked.

"At the first natural morning birdsong," Bob replied promptly. "Songbirds, rooster, whatever. They start to sing, the night ends."

"Oh, good. A deadline." I narrowed my eyes, thinking. "Gives me a bit more than twenty-four hours, then," I muttered. "And all I have to do is find her, when she can be anywhere in the world or the Nevernever, then get her here, then beat her down, all without her escaping or killing me first. Simple." -Cold Days

Halloween doesn't just continue everywhere simply because Alaska got left behind. It might still be valid IN Alaska, but not in Chicago.
[2:23 PM] raidem: Well we know that he had a birthday party in Winter and now he is told that he has more than 24 hours.  So, the calendar is already a bit off.
[2:24 PM] raidem: So, cosmic Halloween ends at first natural morning birdsong
[2:25 PM] raidem: 'by tomorrow' is operative with regard to the white screen.  bob dumbed it down further to 'rock hits tomorrow'(edited)
[2:26 PM] raidem: the thing to prevent is rock thrown
[2:27 PM] raidem: so rock thrown is halloween, rock hit, for your purposes, is november 1st
[2:28 PM] raidem: there is one other thing the outsiders was trying to do.  they tried to take Harry to their side. they tried to take him as leader of wild hunt. they also may have tried to get him to tap into Demonreach himself.(edited)
[2:29 PM] raidem: When do you think rock thrown is?
[2:29 PM] -EG-: How, in any way, does him having a 'birthday party' in Arctis Tor...where time is already different than in the real world...make the calendar off? So 'cosmic halloween' has this rigid start to it, signified by Harry's birthday, but it's ending is fluid that you keep arguing this point. He returns to Chicago at night, has 'a little more than 24 hrs' to stop what's gonna happen.

It has nothing to do with 'my purposes' because you keep thinking when the rock is thrown matters for something more than that being when Harry has to stop it. The rock hitting on November 1st, as it was stated to do, is the important part. Because you and Godslayer are arguing the only way this whole scene by the Outsiders works, is if someone is slated to come along and gobble up their power because they die on Halloween. Halloween will have passed, as I said all along.
[2:30 PM] Godslayer: @-EG-  Everything you wrote makes sense. But I think Jim is pulling a fast one on us. And did a damn good job since now one has noticed yet :wink:
[2:30 PM] Godslayer: For one simple reason: Why do this on Halloween at all?
[2:31 PM] raidem: Ok. Here it is.  Why assume the rock hit is the direct reason it went white.(edited)
[2:31 PM] -EG-: Because if Mab, or any other 'power' player who cannot ordinarily die tries to stop them...they can kill her?
[2:31 PM] -EG-: For keeps.
[2:31 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Oh, that's a good point.
[2:31 PM] Godslayer: And she can kill them... which is a much more likely outcome
[2:31 PM] Godslayer: which is what happened
[2:31 PM] Godslayer: many outsiders were lost that night
[2:32 PM] Vicissitude: More where that came from, I'd imagine.
[2:32 PM] raidem: It doesn't matter when the rock hits.  Demonreach will kill it's prisoners before the rock hits on November 1st.
[2:32 PM] -EG-: Again, i'm not saying this plan was perfect. You were the one saying it didn't make sense. And HHWBefore isn't 'dead' for keeps, just his body is.
[2:32 PM] Vicissitude: I imagine they'll reform outside somehow
[2:32 PM] Godslayer: Now, it could just be that Jim wanted to do the kill Maeve story and worked them both together
[2:32 PM] -EG-: His essence left.
[2:32 PM] Godslayer: but personally, I think Jim is sneakier than that
[2:32 PM] Godslayer: I think if he dies on Halloween he's dead for keeps too
[2:33 PM] raidem: See, this idea that the Outsiders can't be killed is stupid.
[2:33 PM] -EG-: Along with the .45-caliber bullet, I sent a column of pure energy and will surging down the barrel and into the Walker's skull. His head exploded, literally exploded, into streamers and gobbets of black ichor. His cloak of rags went mad, throwing the headless body into the air and sending it thrashing through the shallow water like a half-squashed bug. Dark vapor began issuing from the frantically twitching body-then suddenly gathered into a single cloud, all in a rush, and shot away, emitting a furious and agonized and terrorized scream as it went, alien but unmistakable. -Cold Days
[2:34 PM] -EG-: No one said 'outsiders can't be killed' like, at all.
[2:34 PM] -EG-: So call it stupid as you want, that's never been my argument.
[2:34 PM] -EG-: Outsiders clearly die all the time, it's just hard.
[2:34 PM] -EG-: The Walker, did not.
[2:34 PM] Godslayer: Do you think he'll be back?
[2:34 PM] -EG-: You don't?
[2:35 PM] -EG-: That thing was stated to be of a same general league as Mab, of course it will be back.
[2:35 PM] Vicissitude: I full expect to see the triumverate team up to fight Harry. Probably as the last fight before whatever the big bad Outsider leader turns out to be.
[2:35 PM] -EG-: Just as HHWBehind came back.
[2:38 PM] raidem: Dark vapor began issuing from the frantically twitching body-then suddenly gathered into a single cloud, all in a rush, and shot away, emitting a furious and agonized and terrorized scream as it went, alien but unmistakable. -Cold Days  Yeah, I construed this to possibly be its mantle without the wearer.(edited)
[2:38 PM] -EG-: And that's why I said it's like a Demon from the NN, who when it's body dies, it's essence goes back from whence it came. That doesn't make the Demon a mantle.
[2:39 PM] Vicissitude: Huh. Yeah, the Summer and Winter Lady mantles did the same thing when they left their hosts, just in more recognizable forms
[2:39 PM] Vicissitude: But I think Outsiders are just, you know, Outsiders.
[2:39 PM] raidem: It does if it gets a new wearer
[2:39 PM] raidem: They are Outsiders but they have their own civilization, etc.
[2:39 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Yeah, pretending that the outsiders are bound to the same metaphysical rules is a big mistake in my opinion.  That's pretty much the point of them being outsiders.
[2:40 PM] -EG-: You have to actively summon a new body for an Outsider and a Demon, mortals do this, it doesn't just up and reconstitute or find a new host on its own.
[2:40 PM] -EG-: Ergo, not a mantle.
[2:40 PM] raidem: You have to get a new body for a Lady mantle. Molly was a new body.  Sarissa was a new body.(edited)
[2:41 PM] Godslayer: Yeah, I  think he'll be back.
[2:41 PM] -EG-: The mantle seeks it out on its own, the Walker does not. They get resummoned.
[2:41 PM] Godslayer: Could go a couple of ways I think
[2:42 PM] raidem: They get resummoned into a body. At least in one case in blood rites.(edited)
[2:42 PM] Godslayer: someone else could become the walker, sort of like a mantle
[2:42 PM] Godslayer: or it wasn't really "killed" meaning they have to be killed in a special way
[2:42 PM] -EG-: ...yeah
[2:43 PM] -EG-: It wasn't 'killed' just it's body destroyed.
[2:43 PM] raidem: Well, it's got to get a new wearer likely.  WOJL did say Vitorrio becoming HWWBefore was a good idea.(edited)
[2:44 PM] -EG-: Likely? Other than Vittorio every Walker got its own 'body' made for it, just like a Demon does.
[2:44 PM] -EG-: Sharkface wasn't possessing someone, it was it's own icky thing.
[2:44 PM] raidem: How do you know?
[2:45 PM] -EG-: I read.
[2:45 PM] raidem: And Jim mentioned that "Sharkface being Vittorio's leftover's" a good idea, better than his has no bearing?(edited)
[2:46 PM] -EG-: Ok and? He also said Eternal Silence being the part of DR the glacier carved out was a 'good idea'. That doesn't mean he said 'yeah that's canon now'.(edited)
[2:48 PM] raidem: I definitely wasn't aware of that. And for it to make sense, the stones in that region were cut by glaciers.  I do believe there was a suggestion that Eternal Silence's material came from Demonreach.  Its really not so pertinent though.(edited)
[2:49 PM] Vicissitude: Huh. You know, I never thought twice about how Demonreach was able to speak to Harry in chicago
[2:49 PM] -EG-: 'It bullied Mab."
[2:49 PM] Vicissitude: I just chalked it up to his body still being on the island and there being a connection that way
[2:49 PM] raidem: It did via Mab.
[2:49 PM] Vicissitude: Ah, so, shenanigans. Got it.
[2:50 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Like most things:  It started with Shenanigans.
[2:50 PM] raidem: Back to the white screen, I'd argue the white screen is the bane fire.  That is immediately prior to the last second before cosmic halloween occurs.
[2:52 PM] raidem: This would be the failsafe to destroy  the prisoners in case of escape.  Rock hit can be tomorrow but white screen be 'by tomorrow'.
[2:52 PM] raidem: In any event, should Mab be within teh warded circle when the banefire hit, she'd be dead. The ladies would be dead. The prisoners dead. Lot's of things dead. Many powers would be up for grabs.  The outergates would likely be breached.(edited)
[2:53 PM] Godslayer: Hmm... I'm starting to think that Halloween doesn't work on Outsiders
[2:54 PM] Godslayer: Or at least Halloween doesn't work on Walkers
[2:54 PM] raidem: See, this trivializes what Harry did.
[2:55 PM] raidem: Harry accomplished something more than he did when he was 16.
[2:55 PM] Godslayer: When he shot Before?
[2:55 PM] raidem: yes.
[2:55 PM] raidem: Can we say he did more than what he did when he was 16?
[2:55 PM] Godslayer: Maybe. I'm open to the possability
[2:55 PM] Godslayer: But I am thinking that the 3 Walkers just can't be killed
[2:55 PM] raidem: I disagree.  Mac disagreed.
[2:56 PM] -EG-: Based on what? He was 16, a Walker 'died' and he escaped. He was almost 40, a Walker 'died' and he escaped. What is more special about this time around.
[2:56 PM] raidem: There are three.
[2:56 PM] Godslayer: How did Mac disagree?
[2:56 PM] raidem: Winter, magic, soulfire.
[2:56 PM] raidem: Kill it.
[2:57 PM] raidem: Winter magic, and soulfire are two elements he didn't have when he was 16
[2:57 PM] -EG-: And the end result was precisely the same. The body was destroyed, the Walker fled. His magic bullet didn't do anything 'more' than his gas station explosion did at 16. Could you argue it hurt the Walker more, ok fine. But in the end, the result is the same.(edited)
[2:57 PM] Godslayer: that might just be Mac using as few letters as possible
[2:57 PM] raidem: End result wasn't the same.  In one, HWWBefore kept talking as he died in the fire.  In the other, he was reduced to retreating shrieking gas cloud.(edited)
[2:58 PM] raidem: That isn't the same.

[raidem]

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[3:01 PM] -EG-: The. End. Result. Is. The. Same. The Walker was 'defeated', and 'killed'. The method was different, the result was the same. Arguing the semantics of 'how' it happened doesn't change what I said. You can believe it trivialized Harry's actions, I say it shows his power is growing now and he doesn't have to rely on a giant explosion to 'beat' a Walker's body.
[3:01 PM] -EG-: But either way, beat it he did.
[3:02 PM] raidem: When you show me that this : Dark vapor began issuing from the frantically twitching body-then suddenly gathered into a single cloud, all in a rush, and shot away, emitting a furious and agonized and terrorized scream as it went, alien but unmistakable." happens when he was 16, then you can say The. End. Result. Is. The. Same. The walker was 'defeated', and 'killed'.(edited)
[3:03 PM] raidem: And you, we, don't know the exact results.  You say you know but you don't.  Jim knows. And until he confides in you personally, don't tell me the end result is the same. We don't KNOW entirely the significance of it happening on halloween by a Starborne with Winter and Soulfire.(edited)
[3:04 PM] Vyor: HWWBehind was jobbing in that fight
[3:04 PM] Vyor: HWWBefore was actually fighting
[3:04 PM] raidem: EXACTLY.
[3:04 PM] raidem: See this is EG being EG.
[3:05 PM] Vyor: End result is the same however
[3:05 PM] Vyor: How they got there and the situation is what makes it different
[3:05 PM] -EG-: "I stared at the flames and saw a shape within it—or, rather, I saw a creature-shaped void where the smoke and fire should have been. A voice emerged from the fire, something huge and terrifying, a voice that belonged to gods and monsters of myth.
"HOW DARE YOU!" it roared. "HOW DARE YOU RAISE YOUR HAND AGAINST ME!"
Then that not-figure crashed to its knees and fell limply onto its side." -Ghost Story

Jobbing or not, the dude was still pissed and surprised. He reacts just that way.(edited)
[3:06 PM] raidem: We don't KNOW the end result. We can only speculate with our imprecise knowledge of the end result.  Have we had imprecise knowledge before that made us make incorrect assumptions... YES(edited)
[3:07 PM] Vyor: they both seem pretty alive to me.
[3:07 PM] -EG-: Harry destroyed it's body, the Walker fled, he got to go on. Again, as I said, he may well have 'hurt' Before more than normal. That doesn't change what we saw on screen. Both times.
[3:07 PM] Vyor: And very much not dead
[3:08 PM] derpatron: you can't kill an outsider, this is touched upon in one of the early books
[3:08 PM] derpatron: you basically just banish it back to the outside
[3:08 PM] raidem: By a Harry that doesn't quite get the truth of matters.(edited)
[3:08 PM]

escape to cancel • enter to save
[3:09 PM] -EG-: Yeah yeah, unreliable narrator. How dare he tell us what he sees with his own eyes and how dare it parallel one another both times.
[3:09 PM] derpatron: no he said that you can destroy their body
[3:09 PM] derpatron: that's not killing them
[3:09 PM] -EG-: Outsiders die at the Gates. In waves. Walkers it seems cannot die by a method we yet know.
[3:09 PM] Vyor: Outsiders can likely die.
[3:09 PM] Vyor: Walkers... are a maybe
[3:10 PM] raidem: Can Walkers die at the Gates?(edited)
[3:10 PM] derpatron: I don't think a walker would be dumb enough to try the front door
[3:10 PM] raidem: I say yes.
[3:10 PM] derpatron: they're usually brought in by someone in the mortal world for one reason or another
[3:11 PM] raidem: I asked about at the gates
[3:11 PM] derpatron: and I'm wondering why a walker would use the gates in the first place
[3:14 PM] raidem: And, people tend to have the opinion that Outsiders can't die.
[3:14 PM] derpatron: what even is dying in the realm of the outside anyway
[3:14 PM] raidem: What the Outsiders do when they leave their bones on teh Outside portion of the OuterGates.
[3:15 PM] derpatron: is that actually dying?
[3:15 PM] raidem: That would happen to the Walker.
[3:15 PM] raidem: And, the Walker mantle would likely run screeching as a gas cloud...
[3:16 PM] derpatron: is it a mantle?
[3:16 PM] raidem: Its a power.(edited)
[3:17 PM] derpatron: are we sure of that
[3:17 PM] raidem: So either its an Outsider that is killed like all other Outsiders.
[3:17 PM] -EG-: It is if you close your eyes and keep saying it apparently. Despite paralleling how 'demons' die in the DV and their essence, the thing they actually were, returns from whence it came. And no one calls Demons a mantle.
[3:17 PM] raidem: Or its an Outsider that has a mantle of 'Knight.'
[3:18 PM] derpatron: where is that brought up?
[3:18 PM] raidem: So which is it EG. Does the Walker die like any other Outsdier at the gates or what?
[3:18 PM] derpatron: I'm Bob Loblaw, the Outside Knight
[3:18 PM] raidem: Bestow your wealth of knowlege upon us.
[3:19 PM] derpatron: now you're just being rude
[3:19 PM] raidem: to EG
[3:19 PM] Godslayer: I think Walkers are sort of like Outsider Knights
[3:19 PM] raidem: And that would be a mantle.
[3:19 PM] derpatron: how do we make the jump that knight=mantle?
[3:19 PM] Godslayer: Define Mantle
[3:20 PM] raidem: power that is wearable(edited)
[3:20 PM] Godslayer: Walkers could be Mantles..... but I don't think so
[3:20 PM] Godslayer: But I won't argue either way on it. Just not worth the effort without more info
[3:21 PM] derpatron: Walkers are walkers, I don't think it's some transferrable thing
[3:21 PM] raidem: Well in Outsider heirarchy they are the least it seems of the 'royals'
[3:21 PM] Godslayer: I'm just not sure if Walkers are the masters or the servants yet
[3:21 PM] raidem: they are the least of the royals(edited)
[3:22 PM] Godslayer: I wouldn't say they are the least
[3:22 PM] Godslayer: but who knows
[3:22 PM] raidem: your right.
[3:22 PM] derpatron: They have a specific role
[3:22 PM] Godslayer: we only know of one being above them at this point, right?
[3:22 PM] Dragon: The outsiders are all of one mind right?
[3:22 PM] derpatron: I doubt there's a heirarchy
[3:22 PM] derpatron: they don't operate that way
[3:22 PM] Godslayer: No, they do
[3:22 PM] raidem: There is WOJL that says so
[3:22 PM] Godslayer: We are told they have a master
[3:22 PM] -EG-: Lasciel leaned closer. "He Who Walks Behind is an Outsider, Harry. A terrible creature, the most potent of the Walkers, a powerful knight among their ruling entities. But when he came for you, you overthrew him." -White Night*
[3:22 PM] derpatron: ah ok
[3:23 PM] -EG-: Old Ones run the show, more or less.
[3:23 PM] raidem: there is a WOJL though too
[3:23 PM] Godslayer: The Lord of Slowest Terror is who they follow, right?
[3:23 PM] raidem: HWWB is the Knight of him, yes
[3:24 PM] raidem: So, then we have to ask ourself is he the top of the food chain
[3:24 PM] raidem: I'd say probably not
[3:24 PM] derpatron: so basically Hellraiser
[3:24 PM] raidem: Where does Nemesis fit it?
[3:24 PM] raidem: It seems even the Mothers feared Nemesis
[3:25 PM] derpatron: LeMarchand :v
[3:25 PM] raidem: So that means Nemesis is on the order of Mother and higher
[3:25 PM] -EG-: Not what that means but, ok.
[3:25 PM] Vicissitude: Maybe not in power, but it can overthrow greater powers
[3:26 PM] raidem: could mean
[3:26 PM] raidem: I'm imprecise with language, spelling, etc (my fault on all).  Look more for gist of arguments.(edited)
[3:27 PM] I_Am_A_Zombie_Hunter: Difference between powerful and dangerous. A la the Rashid WoJ.
[3:28 PM] raidem: So. To sum up arguments so far.
[3:29 PM] raidem: I've argued that some, many of the prisoners in Demonreach have mantles/power.
[3:30 PM] raidem: That this/these mantles/powers would be released in destruction of Demonreach on cosmic Halloween.(edited)
[3:30 PM] raidem: That consumers (Outsiders, Insider) could take advantage of these resources by 'gobbling' them up.
[3:32 PM] raidem: I argue that Harry may have killed HWWBefore and we saw a 'mantlelike' essence retreat toward the retreating Outside army.
[3:33 PM] raidem: I argued that there was a difference, in some end result, between Harry killing HWWB and HWWBefore.  That killing HWWBefore on Halloween with Winter and Soulfire did something more than what occurred when he was just 16.
[3:35 PM] raidem: I argued that human ideas can create mantles. And that Jim has a liberal definition of the same word 'mantle.'
[3:36 PM] raidem: I argued that the white screen depicted by Bob is 'by tomorrow' not strictly November 1st. (cosmic Halloween would still be enforced)(edited)
[3:38 PM] raidem: I now say if on November 1st and not cosmic Halloween then the last option is what @-EG- suggests would take place, that of freeing the prisoners
[3:38 PM] raidem: However, even then it seems that white screen would still take place...
[3:39 PM] raidem: So is white screen banefire?
[3:39 PM] ZQKing: White screen was clarified to be Banefire
[3:40 PM] raidem: Banefire is 'by tomorrow' not necessarily when rock hits tomorrow(edited)
[3:40 PM] ZQKing: Banefire is an automatic fail-safe if the well is damaged beyond repair
[3:40 PM] ZQKing: So when the rock hits and destabilizes the island, kaboom.
[3:43 PM] Godslayer: I wonder if The Lord of Slowest Terror is Nemesis
[3:43 PM] raidem: yeah, I know what the banefire is but i'm looking at the timeline sequence of rock thrown, banefire, and rock hit.  Your input though is greatly appreciated
[3:44 PM] raidem: EG and I was discussing the particulars with regard to the 'rock hit', november 1st, and cosmic halloween.  All that coupled with immortality/mortality of the prisoners.(edited)
[3:47 PM] ZQKing: All of y'all

👏1
👌1
[3:48 PM] Vicissitude: XD
[3:49 PM] Godslayer: Personally I think Cowl is the big bad of the series and is using the Walkers to his own ends. (And he's probably Justin)
[3:49 PM] Godslayer: :smile:
[3:56 PM] derpatron: lmao you got downvoted already by someone
[3:56 PM] derpatron: I wonder who could have done it
[3:56 PM] derpatron: :thinking:
[4:05 PM] raidem: OK. Now I got a better explanation of events.  Bob showed us only a model of what would/could happen.  He didn't know when exactly the rock would be thrown and therefore wouldn't know prercisely when it would hit.
[4:07 PM] raidem: We do know the events of the book.  Bobs model of the rock thrown and landing coincides with 'a scarlet' power hitting the westernshore of the island. This would be landing site of the barge.  We know this landing of the barge was during cosmic Halloween.  We know this because afterward, Lily and Maeve die during cosmic Halloween.(edited)
[4:11 PM] raidem: I'll mention that another time we have a 'scarlet power' was when Harry ate Kravos' animated ghost in GP.  In Summer Knight, when Mab buys Harry's debt to Lea and later meets with Harry, she stabs Harry's hand with a dagger.  She upon leaving sends a power of Winter through the wound up to Harry's heart.  I would argue that Mab could have been excising this lingering power remaining within Harry upon eating Kravos' heart.
[4:13 PM] raidem: So, the rock thrown=landing of barge would result in at some time a banefire event.  Bob's model doesn't show the exact time of such a rock thrown and landing, so EG nor Bob can't say with certainty that the rock landing would be November 1st, as it was only a model.(edited)
[4:15 PM] raidem: We do know however that "by tomorrow" is a definition in play as well as "cosmic halloween" and "november 1st"(edited)
[4:16 PM] -EG-: You can keep doing all the mental gymnastics you want here but Bob says the rock 'hits' on November 1st. He may have had to 'dumb' the model down for Harry, that doesn't mean the information was wrong. Because it's sort of essential to the whole plot.

I forced myself to look back at the projection, and saw those millions upon millions of spells resonating with one another, spreading and interlocking into an impenetrable barrier. It was, I thought, somehow like watching crystals grow. The spells powering the actual construction of it hadn't been, alone, too much stronger than some of the work I had done-but when they'd been interconnected with their counterparts across time, they'd fed upon one another, created a perfect resonance of energy that had become something infinitely greater than the sum of its parts.

Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design. It began as something faint, but then, like an oncoming headache, started to throb into something larger and more noticeable. Where scarlet and blue light touched, there were ugly flares of energy-flares that I had been sensing ever since I'd gotten to the island. Before long, that scarlet pulse had spread to half the island, and then, abruptly, the screen went white.

Text at the bottom read, NOVEMBER 1.

"By tomorrow," I said. "Super. But I still don't see what is wrong, Bob."

"Energy hits it," Bob said. "A directed burst of energy, a whole lot of it. It unravels the whole containment spell Merlin laid down and triggers the fail-safe."

"FIRE," rumbled Demonreach.

"I figured that one out, thanks," I said. "But nothing has actually happened to the spells yet?"

"Nope," said Bob. "That tension that's building? It's . . . Well, think of it as cause and effect, only backward."

"Huh?"
[4:17 PM] -EG-: "What the island is experiencing now is the echo of the moment that burst of energy strikes it," Bob said. "Only instead of the echo happening after, it's happening first."

I stopped and thought. "You're telling me that the reason the island is about to blow up is . . . because it's about to blow up?"

Bob sighed. "Someone hits the island with energy, Harry. But they've figured out how Merlin put this place together. They aren't attacking it in three dimensions. They're attacking in four. They're sending power through time as well as through space."

"So . . . I have to stop them from attacking the island tomorrow?"

"No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."

"Uh . . ."

"Look, the rock they're throwing hits tomorrow," Bob said. "But you have to stop them from throwing it at whatever point they're standing when they throw it." -Cold Days
[4:17 PM] -EG-: Rock hits, banefire erupts, thus kablooie, thus death. Tomorrow. November first. There is no tricksy subterfuge definitions here.
[4:19 PM] -EG-: Harry has to stop them from releasing the spell, which was during Halloween, in those last hours. But it wasn't gonna connect till the next day.(edited)
[4:20 PM] raidem: Actually Bob says a bit more than twenty four hours, then.  And says it hits tomorrow.
[4:20 PM] raidem: That means it hits Halloween
[4:20 PM] -EG-: Harry says 'bit more than 24 hrs' for Halloween's time limit.
[4:20 PM] -EG-: From the moment he was back in Chicago, he had just over a day to stop everything from blowing up.
[4:20 PM] -EG-: November 1st. Again.
[4:21 PM] raidem: It was only a model.  The barge was it hitting the shoreline. That occured not november 1st
[4:21 PM] raidem: We saw it happen
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: oh for fuck's sakes
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: No
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: the barge was a fucking bargre
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: with a circle
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: It doesn't automatically go off
[4:21 PM] ZQKing: dingus
[4:21 PM] raidem: When it lands it goes off dingus
[4:22 PM] ZQKing: presumably it takes some time to set up a continent-cracking spell
[4:22 PM] -EG-: Post that quote then.
[4:22 PM] -EG-: Where barge hits, spell goes off instantly.(edited)
[4:22 PM] raidem: They had the ritual ready
[4:22 PM] ZQKing: Harry wanted to stop the boats because if the boats got to shore, they'd be able to finish preparations
[4:23 PM] raidem: Harry was preventing them from landing. The ritual was already being conducted.  They needed to run aground.  Harry stopped them. Thereby attack on Demonreach was averted.
[4:23 PM] raidem: The timebomb didn't happen
[4:24 PM] -EG-: And again, you find one quote that says that 'time bomb' goes off the second that barge touches. They were landing to build the ritual up off the ley lines.
[4:24 PM] ZQKing: I'm looking for quotes relating to the boats
[4:24 PM] ZQKing: "This doesn't make any sense," I said. "The ritual would still need a platform, and that would take time and work to set up-at least a day. It would show. They haven't even gotten onto the island y-" Then the truth hit me in a flash. "The barges," I said. "They set up a ritual platform on one of the barges. It's the only thing that makes sense."

"The waters of the lake would diminish the power they could draw from the ley lines running beneath it," the Erlking said.

"Yeah," I said. "That's why they're assaulting the shore. They're going to force a breach and then run the barge aground on the island. That'll put them in direct contact with the ley line."
[4:25 PM] raidem: Exactly.
[4:26 PM] -EG-: "If the ritual was already in progress, then there was a chance that they were simply in a holding pattern, maintaining the skeleton of the spell with their own limited energy and waiting until the right moment. Once they were close enough to use it, they'd drop their circle and channel the energy of the ley line, shaping it into the spell's muscles and organs, filling out the frame that was prepared to accommodate it. I had to make sure they never got that chance." -Cold Days

Not I had to make sure they stop or I blow up instantly.(edited)
[4:26 PM] raidem: The barges are the platform.  They were already doing the rituals so teh 'at least a day of setup' doesn't require that amount of time post landing.(edited)
[4:26 PM] ZQKing: It took harry about a minute to do his cheap and tiny by comparison gravity strike at chicen itza
[4:27 PM] ZQKing: Even with an outsider, I think that a continent-cracking breach of the most powerful magical construct in the world (so far) might take a little more energy being drawn in
[4:27 PM] ZQKing: and even more carefully
[4:30 PM] raidem: Yep.  You just provided evidence to support my position.  "The ritual was already in progress."(edited)
[4:30 PM] ZQKing: Actually I put evidence against it
[4:30 PM] ZQKing: it wouldn't be instantanious boom, like some fuckin mario touchin a goomba
[4:30 PM] ZQKing: effectively it'd be game over if a barge got on shore, but not instantanious

(click to show/hide)

[4:31 PM] raidem: I didn't say it would be instantaneous.  I said it would be before cosmic halloween ended.
[4:31 PM] ZQKing: Ah yes
[4:31 PM] ZQKing: cosmic halloween
[4:31 PM] ZQKing: when the vulcans ransack romulus for candy
[4:31 PM] raidem: EG agrees with my definition simp(edited)
[4:33 PM] raidem: 'cosmic' halloween is needed to differentiate from mere halloween as mortal calendar doesn't align perfectly with cosmic events and conjunctions
[4:33 PM] raidem: so...
[4:35 PM] raidem: Any you are all relying on Bob's model as being correct in time,place.
[4:35 PM] raidem: Bob gave a model because he didn't know the exact particulars
[4:36 PM] raidem: If he had known the particulars he'd let Harry know.
[4:36 PM] -EG-: He knew them well enough to say 'the rock his tomorrow'.
[4:36 PM] raidem: But it didn't
[4:36 PM] ZQKing: All Bob knew is what the island knew
[4:36 PM] -EG-: It didn't hit at ALL. Because Harry stopped it.
[4:36 PM] raidem: It is a model.
[4:36 PM] ZQKing: and what the island knew is that something from somewhere was about to hit
[4:36 PM] ZQKing: demonreach's awareness is four-dimesnional
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: it has awareness of the future, probably
[4:37 PM] raidem: It new the attack would be western edge.
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: so it knows what's going ot happen right up until banefire, which would be the EQ of a demonreach death curse, for a comparison
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: Exactly
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: it knew everything right up until the banefire hit
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: as failing in its duties is simply not in the realm of comprehension
[4:37 PM] ZQKing: as noted in the book
[4:38 PM] raidem: He also said 'by tomorrow'
[4:38 PM] ZQKing: Yes
[4:38 PM] ZQKing: because
[4:38 PM] ZQKing: Demonreach, knowing the future, right up until the banefire goes of
[4:38 PM] ZQKing: would know, having the ability to know the future, when it would go off
[4:38 PM] ZQKing: aren't you the time travel guy
[4:38 PM] raidem: I don't argue with that.
[4:39 PM] raidem: I'm arguing about the banefire being within 'cosmic' haloween which EG is arguing is manifestly impossible given Bob's model
[4:39 PM] ZQKing: I'm now confused
[4:40 PM] -EG-: Because you're arguing against the text, because you want it to happen this way so you can say someone was trying to 'kill' the things in the Well so it could 'eat' their mantles, because you think those things have mantles and that was the plan.
[4:40 PM] -EG-: The mental gymnastics are only necessary because of what you want it to be, rather than what it was.
[4:40 PM] ZQKing: I think the plan is as stated
[4:40 PM] ZQKing: nuke the island, flatten the continental US, free whatever survives the banefire
[4:40 PM] ZQKing: cue apoclaypse
[4:41 PM] ZQKing: I refer back to this

[4:42 PM] -EG-: The banefire does not happen before the rock hits, it happens as a result of the rock hitting. Which we are told, twice, is November 1st. Thus the things there don't 'die' fully and are able to run loose and 'end' everything.
[4:42 PM] -EG-: The barges don't nuke the island the second they hit it, they still build up the full ritual off the ley line.
[4:42 PM] ZQKing: The banefire is the island's automatic failsafe if the well is opened by attack
[4:42 PM] ZQKing: as stated by bob
[4:42 PM] ZQKing: Imma grab that (ass)
[4:42 PM] -EG-: ...Bob's ass?
[4:43 PM] ZQKing: it could happen
[4:43 PM] -EG-: Do you.
[4:44 PM] ZQKing: Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design. It began as something faint, but then, like an oncoming headache, started to throb into something larger and more noticeable. Where scarlet and blue light touched, there were ugly flares of energy-flares that I had been sensing ever since I'd gotten to the island. Before long, that scarlet pulse had spread to half the island, and then, abruptly, the screen went white.

Text at the bottom read, NOVEMBER 1.

"By tomorrow," I said. "Super. But I still don't see what is wrong, Bob."

"Energy hits it," Bob said. "A directed burst of energy, a whole lot of it. It unravels the whole containment spell Merlin laid down and triggers the fail-safe."

"FIRE," rumbled Demonreach.

"I figured that one out, thanks," I said. "But nothing has actually happened to the spells yet?"

"Nope," said Bob. "That tension that's building? It's . . . Well, think of it as cause and effect, only backward."
[4:45 PM] ZQKing: "What the island is experiencing now is the echo of the moment that burst of energy strikes it," Bob said. "Only instead of the echo happening after, it's happening first."

I stopped and thought. "You're telling me that the reason the island is about to blow up is . . . because it's about to blow up?"

Bob sighed. "Someone hits the island with energy, Harry. But they've figured out how Merlin put this place together. They aren't attacking it in three dimensions. They're attacking in four. They're sending power through time as well as through space."

"So . . . I have to stop them from attacking the island tomorrow?"

"No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."

"Uh . . ."

"Look, the rock they're throwing hits tomorrow," Bob said. "But you have to stop them from throwing it at whatever point they're standing when they throw it."

"Oh," I said, blinking. "I get that."

Bob turned to look at Demonreach. "Do you see what I have to work with here? I had to take that down to throwing a rock before it got through."

"HIS UNDERSTANDING IS LIMITED," Demonreach agreed.
[4:45 PM] ZQKing: Hope this settles it
[4:45 PM] derpatron: nope
[4:45 PM] derpatron: It's not a mantle
[4:46 PM] ZQKing: What
[4:46 PM] -EG-: Why should it, I only posted it twice.
[4:46 PM] raidem: "No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."
[4:46 PM] raidem: This means Bob doesn't know
[4:46 PM] ZQKing: I
[4:46 PM] ZQKing: What's your angle?
[4:46 PM] -EG-: He doesn't know when they throw it. He very much knows when it HITS.
[4:46 PM] -EG-: Because he says when it hits. Twice.
[4:47 PM] raidem: It hits when it goes scarlet.
[4:47 PM] ZQKing: it goes scarlet because it hits
[4:47 PM] ZQKing: order of events
[4:47 PM] raidem: Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design.
[4:47 PM] ZQKing: and the scarlet is just bob illustrating it for dummy dresden
[4:48 PM] raidem: Yes but that means scarlet isn't white screen which isn't november 1st.
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: ...What?
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: Okay so
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: Theoretically, if the boats were to hit the shore at say
[4:48 PM] derpatron: the colors, Duke
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: fuckin
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: 10pm
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: the spell goes off, and nothing seems to happen
[4:48 PM] ZQKing: the spell hits several hours later
[4:49 PM] raidem: the rock hit is the scarlet hitting Demonreach.
[4:49 PM] ZQKing: causing, in linear order, the "redness" which destabilizes the island and sets off the fire
[4:49 PM] ZQKing: and the fire goes off by early morning november 1st
[4:49 PM] raidem: Yes
[4:49 PM] raidem: so rock hit preceds banefire
[4:49 PM] raidem: rock hit precedes banefire
[4:50 PM] ZQKing: Yes, that was never in question
[4:50 PM] ZQKing: because the rock triggers the banefire by destabilizign the island
[4:50 PM] raidem: it is in question
[4:50 PM] ZQKing: How
[4:51 PM] raidem: rock hit isn't november 1st according to your unerring model
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: NO
[4:51 PM] raidem: defined by the white screen
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: IT'S LATE NIGHT OCTOBER 31ST
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: THE DAY PRECEDING NOVEMBER 1ST
[4:51 PM] raidem: exactly
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: THE DAY AFTER OCTOBER 31ST, HALLOWEEN, IS NOVEMBER 1ST
[4:51 PM] raidem: which EG argued was november 1st
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: THEREFORE
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: IF THE SPELL HITS LATE NIGHT OCTOBER 31ST
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: THE FIRE GOES OFF EARLY MORNING NOVEMBER 1ST
[4:51 PM] raidem: Keep arguing my case please
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: AS STATED IN BOB'S
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: fuckng
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: dfmkalsdfmsdfsfd
[4:51 PM] ZQKing: fsad'flsd'flflksad'lfk;sakdsadld
[4:52 PM] raidem: But EG said rock hit was november 1st
[4:52 PM] -EG-: Yeah. Because it was.
[4:52 PM] -EG-: Because bob said so.
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: Okay I agree with EG, I just had a brain fart
[4:52 PM] raidem: So which is it. But ZQ just contradicted you.
[4:52 PM] derpatron: jesus
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: yeah, the boats hit late night october 31st
[4:52 PM] derpatron: this is amazing
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: but by after midnight
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: the spell goes off
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: why is this a debate
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: i thoguht tthe bokkw as acleans
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: ads
[4:52 PM] derpatron: because eg has to be wrong
[4:52 PM] derpatron: that's why
[4:52 PM] ZQKing: I need some fuckin weed man this is giving my head hurt
[4:53 PM] raidem: I love it.
[4:53 PM] raidem: Got to make some tea
[4:53 PM] Vyor: raidem is a cuuuunt, news at 11
[4:53 PM] raidem: I'm an annoying shit.
[4:53 PM] -EG-: Not something to aspire towards.
[4:54 PM] derpatron: clearly it's a thing we should all strive for
[4:54 PM] derpatron: since you know
[4:54 PM] ZQKing: Take it from an annoying shit
[4:54 PM] derpatron: you have to be wrong
[4:54 PM] ZQKing: Track record states that if EG has a conradiction to your theory he's probably right
[4:54 PM] ZQKing:
[4:54 PM] derpatron: no u
[4:55 PM] derpatron: track record is 9.58 seconds
[5:07 PM] raidem: Ok. another tack.  How long do you think it would take for the barge ritual to take effect had teh barge landed?
[5:07 PM] raidem: In hours?
[5:08 PM] ZQKing: unknown.
[5:09 PM] raidem: So far I have argued.  Bob's illustration is a model.  The rock hit didn't land.  The rock thrown didn't happen either.  So, it wasn't some preordained event wherby the model is absolute though it is fairly accurate given Demonreach abilities.(edited)
[5:09 PM] raidem: Venture a guess.
[5:10 PM] raidem: After the barge landed how much time did HWWBefore need before the scarlet showed up on Demonreach.  You argued it wasn't instantaneous.  So when would it be.
[5:10 PM] raidem: I argued the barge landing occured on Haloween, as it did.
[5:10 PM] raidem: I argued that barge landing was near in time to the scarlet on the model.  You and EG have argued otherwise.
[5:11 PM] raidem: So, how long does it take.
[5:16 PM] raidem: It's a relevant question.
[5:17 PM] -EG-: Enough time that it occurs on November 1st. Bypassing the Halloween 'problem' and allowing the Well prisoners to be set free and end the world. As the book text tells us. Because again, the only reason you see a 'problem' is because you have latched onto the idea that there was this secret subplot to 'kill' everything in there, and eat their mantles. Is it ever mentioned all, most, or even ANY thing down there has a mantle? No. Does Vadderung ever tell Harry in their conversation about the island that, hey, you might also wanna watch out for the power being 'eaten' if the place does blow? No. Does it even make a whole bunch of sense that a spell that levels the upper half of the US is gonna then allow for anyone or anything to conceivably be left standing in order to actually take in that power as you say was going to be the case? No.

Does Bob explicitly have the 'rock'/spell going off the next day, November 1st? Yes. Twice. Once in big, bold letters. You have pretzel twisting conjecture in order to fit what you wanted it to be. The rest of us have the text to go by.

So, in summation for the final time, there is no problem with events as they were described or played out.
[5:18 PM] raidem: The island starts having problems prior to white screen, November 1st.
[5:19 PM] raidem: Problems occur during Haloween.
[5:19 PM] -EG-: Problems reach critical mass and consequences erupt November 1st. Again, all in the text.
[5:19 PM] raidem: You dodged the question EG.  You say "enough time that it occurs on november 1st." You are fitting pieces to fit your idea of what would happen.(edited)
[5:21 PM] -EG-: My idea of what happened, is what happened. I don't have to 'fit' anything because i'm not arguing against the text. There is nothing to dodge.
[5:22 PM] raidem: Now to answer the Question: The ritual would have enough time to be placed until some point prior to Demonreach's inner wards came down that Maeve and Lily put up.(edited)
[5:23 PM] raidem: You are dodging the 'by tomorrow' and using the hit tomorrow.
[5:24 PM] raidem: The text argues two different things on that count.  And it says, you have to stop it when it happens (which Bob admits he doesn't know).  Then to dumb it down futher goes off script and say tomorrow.  Also, he says echoes occurr prior to it hitting.(edited)
[5:26 PM] raidem: I got to eat dinner.  Will continue after supper.
[5:26 PM] -EG-: The only one who doesn't seem to understand what 'by tomorrow' means here is you. Because you keep twisting this into some sort of problematic statement. The energy reaches critical mass and the eruption occurs 'by tomorrow', November 1st. The 'rock' hits November 1st. He has to stop it when the spell is THROWN, but the throw still does not hit until the next day.
[5:26 PM] raidem: we are talking about the white screen
[5:27 PM] ZQKing: https://youtu.be/KYUMpgpLLuU
YouTube
raywilliamjohnsonre
NERD RAGE!!! Your Favorite Martian music video


[5:27 PM] -EG-: YOU are talking about the white screen.
[5:27 PM] raidem: white screen is november 1st.  rock hit is shown prior in the model as seen by scarlet power.(edited)
[5:28 PM] Llama: this has to be the stupidest conversation ive ever seen
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: yes raidem that is what heppend
[5:28 PM] raidem: thanks
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: thank you for clarifying that, in order
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: someone throws the spell
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: the spell travels through time
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: the spell hits
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: and the banefire goes off
[5:28 PM] raidem: I never said otherwise
[5:28 PM] ZQKing: then what the fuck is this argument
[5:29 PM] raidem: it is a precise point  about a point in time
[5:29 PM] ZQKing: Yes
[5:29 PM] ZQKing: Okay look, let me be real honest for a moment
[5:29 PM] ZQKing: if this argument fucking mattered, the book would probably say so.
[5:29 PM] raidem: true
[5:30 PM] ZQKing: then
[5:31 PM] -EG-: You're like this always, take responsibility for your own actions.
[5:31 PM] ZQKing:

[5:31 PM] ZQKing:

[5:32 PM] ZQKing:

[5:36 PM] derpatron: Y'all ppl need white god
[5:45 PM] Vyor: 's son
[5:47 PM] raidem: OK then...I take back what I said. I'm responsible for my own actions...
[5:48 PM] derpatron: This was the tide pod challenge of DF debates
[5:49 PM] darth_dresden: O_o  Lawd Jebus what did I walk into it.
[5:50 PM] derpatron: EG being wrong
[5:50 PM] derpatron: Lul
[5:51 PM] raidem: "So . . . I have to stop them from attacking the island tomorrow?"
"No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."
[5:53 PM] raidem: If I say I'll eat dinner by tomorrow, what do you guys think that means?
[5:53 PM] raidem: Do I have to only eat dinner tomorrow?
[5:53 PM] raidem: Can I eat dinner in like 1 hour, because I'm hungry now.
[5:53 PM] derpatron: You're substantially unhealthy and shouldn't put off food intake for such long periods of time
[5:55 PM] raidem: And, if I have a model of something say a skyscraper.  And the top floor has an escape route out the window with no ladder.  But there is no ladder but the model shows it, should I go out the window?
[5:55 PM] raidem: Is the model unerring?
[5:56 PM] raidem: And if a screen is going white, and then  is white and has a date, can the date of it going white be on another date than the one affixed to the white screen?
[5:56 PM] derpatron: Are you trying to make a 9/11 joke with that one?
[5:56 PM] raidem: I think I should have used another example. No.
[5:56 PM] ZQKing:

[5:57 PM] raidem: I was actually using the DF example of LASH.(edited)
[5:57 PM] ZQKing:

[5:58 PM] derpatron: I see Ben Savage and Bill Cosby
[5:58 PM] derpatron: Fred savage?
[5:59 PM] ZQKing:

[6:31 PM] raidem: Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design. It began as something faint, but then, like an oncoming headache, started to throb into something larger and more noticeable. Where scarlet and blue light touched, there were ugly flares of energy-flares that I had been sensing ever since I'd gotten to the island. Before long, that scarlet pulse had spread to half the island, and then, abruptly, the screen went white.

Text at the bottom read, NOVEMBER 1.

"By tomorrow," I said. "Super. But I still don't see what is wrong, Bob."

"Energy hits it," Bob said. "A directed burst of energy, a whole lot of it. It unravels the whole containment spell Merlin laid down and triggers the fail-safe."

"FIRE," rumbled Demonreach.

"I figured that one out, thanks," I said. "But nothing has actually happened to the spells yet?"

"Nope," said Bob. "That tension that's building? It's . . . Well, think of it as cause and effect, only backward."
[6:31 PM] raidem: : "What the island is experiencing now is the echo of the moment that burst of energy strikes it," Bob said. "Only instead of the echo happening after, it's happening first."

I stopped and thought. "You're telling me that the reason the island is about to blow up is . . . because it's about to blow up?"

Bob sighed. "Someone hits the island with energy, Harry. But they've figured out how Merlin put this place together. They aren't attacking it in three dimensions. They're attacking in four. They're sending power through time as well as through space."

"So . . . I have to stop them from attacking the island tomorrow?"

"No," Bob said, exasperated. "You have to stop them from attacking whenever it is that they actually attack."

"Uh . . ."
[6:32 PM] raidem: The above is the operative definition of the model.  Anything else Bob says departs from the model and he is dumbing it down creating further distance from the model.
[6:33 PM] raidem: "Energy hits it," Bob said. "A directed burst of energy, a whole lot of it. It unravels the whole containment spell Merlin laid down and triggers the fail-safe." This occurs prior to November 1st, white screen which I argue aligns with the barges landing and the rituals going off (there may be some delayed start)
[6:35 PM] raidem: The white screen is November 1st but the spreading scarlet pulse was occurring prior to then and which Harry was feeling already as they were echoes of an impending event
[6:39 PM] raidem: So the attack hits as Bob says "Energy hits it" and unravels the whole containment spell and this aligns with the barge and rituals placed atop them.  The white screen becomes november 1st and Harry says by tomorrow. So that is Demonreach  hit before the banefire, failsafe activates.  The echoes occur prior to attack and Bob doesn't know when the attack happens.
[6:41 PM] ZQKing: These are all established facts, yes
[6:41 PM] raidem: Nowhere in the above quotes does it necessitate that Demonreach is hit with energy on November 1st by the Outsiders.
[6:41 PM] raidem: Not for EG
[6:41 PM] ZQKing: But the outsiders/Maeve were the ones orchestrating the attack
[6:42 PM] raidem: So?
[6:42 PM] raidem: I'm talking about the date not by whom.
[6:43 PM] raidem: EG and I are arguing about Demonreach being hit on Halloween (me) vs November 1st (him)
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: I thought you were for nov 1
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: also, let's be real here
[6:43 PM] raidem: NOPE
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: why the fuck
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: does it matter
[6:43 PM] raidem: Because EG was arguing the point
[6:43 PM] raidem: and he can't be wrong
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: Just
[6:43 PM] ZQKing: stick to time travel discussions, this was a real clusterfuck
[6:44 PM] raidem: It was a clusterfuck because we got entangled in a argument where we both didn't back down over a small detail.(edited)
[6:46 PM] raidem: I think the ritual on the barge platforms though must have encompassed time travel magic in the ritual.  That could explain in part why there was this attack through time and space.  Something was being fed via the ritual from another time/reality.(edited)
[7:01 PM] raidem: There is also the possibility that Demonreach was attacked in the 5 times that it was anchored it. Or at least in multiple times, and we just saw one such battle.  It really only matters however if we see a repeat event of teh attack on Demonreach in some time travel, alternate reality book.  Otherwise the time element may have to be solely explained by the ritual on the barges.(edited)
[7:03 PM] derpatron: Justin DuMorne is Arthur Langtry from the future and is the father of Donald Morgan
[7:03 PM] derpatron: 1v1 me irl if you disagree
[7:05 PM] derpatron: I'm actually Harry Dresden from an alternate universe where he's 6'1 and fat and has no magic abilities
[7:06 PM] derpatron: Molly is actually Toot-Toot from the future
[7:06 PM] derpatron: Who is Mab from the even more future
[7:07 PM] derpatron: Nemesis is Mother Winter because fuck you
[7:08 PM] derpatron: Prove me wrong EG
[7:08 PM] derpatron: :v
[7:09 PM] ZQKing: the attack was only in that one point
[7:09 PM] ZQKing: or else echos would've been felt all over the timeline
[7:09 PM] ZQKing: vedderung said so
[7:09 PM] derpatron: Oh and we're supposed to trust Santa Claus on this one??
[7:10 PM] derpatron: Maybe he's the one who put it in Maeves head to do the deed
[7:10 PM] derpatron: Jealous of Harry's island etc etc
[7:14 PM] derpatron: Really the screen going to white was Bob playing some h-game and the scene was changing because senpai noticed him
[7:14 PM] raidem: good point ZQ
[7:15 PM] raidem: so it had to be just that one spot at least in this reality
[7:15 PM] derpatron: If I were gonna do time magic
[7:16 PM] raidem: it puts more emphasis that the ritual had the time component needed
[7:16 PM] derpatron: It would be hundreds of years in the future
[7:16 PM] derpatron: So no one would realize what's going on
[7:16 PM] raidem: I wish I had my copies of the book pdfs
[7:16 PM] derpatron: And just think it was some earthquakes for 30 decades

voc.

[kazimmoinuddin]

I think that the bane fire would wound the immortals enough to allow them to be consumed by nemesis and their allies. Or at least be co opted by the enemy.

[raidem]

(click to show/hide)

[7:17 PM] raidem: Yeah, I think it was clear that EG was wrong on the 'rock' hitting on November 1st.
[7:18 PM] derpatron: God dammit
[7:26 PM] raidem: @-EG- EG “Meaning that the echoes caused by the temporal event are proportionately greater than the span of time that was bridged,” he said. “Had the attack been launched from a century ago, or hence, the echoes of it would have begun far, far in advance of the event—centuries ago. These echoes have appeared only within the past few days. I would guess, roughly, that the attack must originate only hours from the actual, real-time occurrence.” “Which is tomorrow,” I said. “So it’s happening sometime today or sometime tomorrow.” “Most likely not tomorrow,” Vadderung said. “Altering one’s past is more than mildly difficult.”(edited)
[7:27 PM] raidem: Vadderung just said "Most likely not tomorrow,"  "Altering one's past is more than mildly difficult."
[7:28 PM] raidem: This contradicts Bob and the argument suggesting November 1st.  This proves the model EG is basing his theory on as having an error per Vadderung.(edited)
[7:28 PM] derpatron: understand one thing
[7:28 PM] derpatron: when Odin says something is more than "mildly difficult" It's generally impossible for anything not holding demigod levels of Power
[7:29 PM] raidem: Agreed. Further supporting the position I hold.(edited)
[7:30 PM] derpatron: I don't see how it supports your position
[7:30 PM] raidem: "The attack must originate only hours from the actual, real-time occurrence."
[7:31 PM] raidem: EG argued the attack on Demonreach (when the rock hits) hits on November 1st.
[7:31 PM] raidem: I argued it hits on Halloween, coinciding with the barge.
[7:31 PM] derpatron: oh god we're still on this
[7:31 PM] raidem: Yes we are.
[7:31 PM] derpatron: the attack was happening on Halloween, yes
[7:32 PM] derpatron: but the only confirmation we get is that The End would absolutely happen by Nov 1
[7:32 PM] raidem: Yes, But he doesn't allow the 'by' in that phrase.  It has to be Nov 1.
[7:32 PM] derpatron: so while the attack was going on it could/would culminate in boom on Nov 1
[7:33 PM] derpatron: additionally we don't know what frame of time we are calling Nov 1
[7:33 PM] raidem: Vadderung just rejected that.
[7:33 PM] derpatron: is it on sunrise?
[7:33 PM] derpatron: or 12:00am
[7:33 PM] raidem: That is why I coined it cosmic halloween.
[7:33 PM] derpatron: can we just say you're both right and leave it the hell alone?
[7:33 PM] raidem: Nov 1st is end of cosmic halloween.
[7:33 PM] derpatron: because god dammit I'm gonna go back in time and beat the shit out of my grandfather, otherwise
[7:34 PM] derpatron: what the hell is cosmic halloween
[7:34 PM] raidem: Can we look at Vadderung's words that rejected 'tomorrow' that Bob just suggested
[7:34 PM] derpatron: that doesn't confirm or deny that halloween ends at midnight 11/1 or sunrise 11/1
[7:34 PM] raidem: It just means the entirety of the time the conjunction exists, not strictly limited in the calendar sense
[7:35 PM] raidem: end of halloween was defined as when the first natural songbird crows(edited)
[7:36 PM] raidem: but in any event, the end of 'cosmic' halloween is what applies as earth has multiple time zones, etc as it relates to immortality, mortality(edited)
[7:36 PM] derpatron: ok
[7:36 PM] derpatron: here
[7:36 PM] ZQKing: Just shut the fuck up plx
[7:36 PM] ZQKing: I don't think anyone else really cares
[7:36 PM] derpatron: dudes start some shit on 10/31
[7:37 PM] derpatron: it begins then, the finishing event causes temporal echoes
[7:37 PM] derpatron: when the event finishes
[7:37 PM] derpatron: it's 11/1
[7:37 PM] derpatron: but it STARTS on 10/31
[7:37 PM] derpatron: there you're both right
[7:37 PM] derpatron: MOVING THE FUCK ON
[7:38 PM] derpatron: Thomas Raith is really 4 svartalves in a pantsuit
[7:39 PM] raidem: I'll go back to Amber series, for now.(edited)
[7:40 PM] raidem: And I finally got Kindle app so now I got access to copyable pdf's next time I get into a debate.(edited)
[9:23 PM] raidem: The rest of the night passed without anyone getting killed. I sat down with my back against the outside wall of the cottage, to keep an eye on my “guests” down the hill, but when I blinked a few seconds later, my eyes stuck shut, and then didn’t open again until I heard, distantly, a bird twittering. Footsteps came crunching up the hill, and I opened my eyes to see Kringle approaching.
[9:24 PM] raidem: Just another clip to go with previous discussion.
[9:31 PM] raidem: “After tonight, Mab will no longer be a concern to anyone.”
[10:32 PM] raidem: I posted this topic to the forum.  They suggested that Halloween takes place partly on Nov 1st.  Since I included the 'cosmic' Halloween argument vs calendar argument, this really doesn't solve it but at least allows the rock hit to both on Halloween and on 11/1. Though it seems EG still has argued it wouldn't be on 'cosmic' Halloween.(edited)
[10:56 PM] raidem: Alright, I'm going to clean up some of my arguments. Per Vadderung, the attack is 'today.' One 'must originate only hours from the actual, real-time occurrence'.  So I've argued that 'cosmic' Halloween can exist while the calendar is 11/1 .  As such, the banefire event with text 11/1 may take place on Halloween. It could have also taken place on non-Halloween 11/1 as EG has argued.  It is a point that can be argued either way.  Halloween straddles in this example both 10/31 and 11/1 so we don't know exactly when the banefire would be used.  I've argued, as many are aware, that it would be when Demonreach would have maximal effect on Halloween.(edited)
[11:09 PM] raidem: I think I feel satisfied now.
January 23, 2018
[1:22 AM] Godslayer: damn, what did I miss?
[1:32 AM] Azmuel: @raidem the island could be destroyed anytime. Immortals could be killed on all hallows eve, which means dusk to dawn
[1:38 AM] Godslayer: My big thing with the attack on Demonreach is it felt very all of nothing. Jim never gave us the impression that there would be time to stop the outsiders if they hit the beach. Everything in those chapters indicated to us that if the barges hit the beach, it was game over right then and there.
[1:42 AM] Azmuel: Yes, and?
[1:48 AM] Godslayer: There was an argument that the barges would hit the beach, then wait until morning for the actrual rite to go off
[2:53 AM] Azmuel: why, the spell was ready for the instant they hit the beach
[4:54 AM] Godslayer: that's my view as well
[11:38 AM] raidem: but not EG's.  In his defense, there was a delayed action though too.  That is confirmed.  However, Vadderung says it would be a few hours in relation to the 'throw' and Vadderung contradicts Bob and says 'most likely not tomorrow' implying  it would be 'today' as in 10/31 or Halloween. So either both 'rock throw' and 'rock hit' is today. Or one is today, and another is tomorrow. But there can only be a few hours between them, and most likely given this they both still occur on Halloween.  I mean Halloween doesn't end until Harry wakes up the morning after when the inner wards come down and he can depart the island.  He notes waking up to a birdsong.  So I'd say the barges landing would be the rock throw allowing those throwing the timebomb a connection to the island.  Then, the rock hit would come a few hours later resulting in final flare immediately prior to banefire event.  The final flare is when the dissonance(caused by the barges) reaches the middle of the island.  I think this is how it goes.(edited)
[11:41 AM] raidem: I disagree that the Prison could be destroyed anytime.  I think that Demonreach has to be attacked on Halloween.  It likely is an immortal Prison to imprison immortals.  If the prison could be destroyed anytime, then it need not be attacked on Halloween.  Demonreach most likely needed a Warden to activate the prison too, otherwise the Outsiders could have attacked it any time it didn't have a Warden.  Both Sharkface and Maeve attempted to coopt Harry so he may have played a part on the attack or sabotage of Demonreach.(edited)
[12:02 PM] raidem: I'm wondering what was going in the fight above when Mab, Harry, and allies were locked up in the inner wards at Demonreach.  When I say 'fight above' I mean the fight going on in another point in time.  Say, Vadderung gets pushed to it, or travels to it, and participates in eradicating this final ritual site that completes the attack on Demonreach in 4 dimensions.  We do see Vadderung sword chipped into and signs of him fighting.(edited)
[12:03 PM] ZQKing: there's no proof of such a fight, evidence points to him simply being bumped a few hours ahead to the next morning
[12:03 PM] ZQKing: as ERlking said, VKRingle would meet them "farther down the shore" after helping break through the time spell
[12:04 PM] raidem: We do see Vadderung sword chipped into and signs of him fighting.(edited)
[12:04 PM] ZQKing: Then maybe he reappeared during the night
[12:04 PM] raidem: We don't exactly know when he reappeared.
[12:04 PM] ZQKing: after the queens died (long live the queens) but before all the outsiders left
[12:04 PM] ZQKing: maybe he showed up again after harry entered the circle of starlight and helped herne fuck up outsiders until the sun rose
[12:05 PM] raidem: That is what I'm also saying.
[12:05 PM] ZQKing: Sharkface was leading them but liekly when sharky got fucked the outsiders simply reverted to extradimensional pihranas
[12:05 PM] raidem: There are two options. You just listed one.
[12:05 PM] raidem: The other is the 4dimensional attack.
[12:06 PM] ZQKing: Which we have no proof of but admittedly would be cool
[12:06 PM] ZQKing: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[12:06 PM] ZQKing: THere's always more going on that Harry knows
[12:06 PM] raidem: We do know they attacked in 4D per Bob in model on Demonreach.
[12:06 PM] raidem: The only way it becomes relevant is Harry comes across it in the time travel book.
[12:07 PM] raidem: What all does he revisit then? Cold Days, Changes, Proven Guilty, Grave Peril
[12:09 PM] raidem: He has to learn that he makes a different choice in Grave Peril.
[12:09 PM] raidem: We believe that Proven Guilty needs to be explained, particularly the battle at Arctis Tor.
[12:10 PM] raidem: If there is another battle taking place at a ritual site for the 4D attack, that site needs to get destroyed.  Does Harry need to participate in it?
[12:11 PM] raidem: Will Harry have to relive the events at the end of Changes, sacrificing Susan to  defeat the Reds.
[12:13 PM] raidem: Next, for my theories, will Harry revisit 1000+ years ago when the last Queens died and past mantles to our Mab and Titania.  Also, Who all accompanies Harry on this time travel trip?
[12:13 PM] raidem: What do you guys think the time travel book will look like.
[12:14 PM] ZQKing: I think it's going to be even more of a reflection book than ghost story
[12:18 PM] raidem: I'll state another reason why Harry or any mortal, but particularly a Starborn, needed to be in charge of the Wild Hunt and giving orders.(edited)
[12:19 PM] raidem: It gives more permanence to the event in 'history,' thereby preventing any time travel plot to undo it.  It is backed by a mortal's free will choice.  Starborn has greater weight than others.(edited)
[12:20 PM] ZQKing: Not a bad thought
[12:20 PM] ZQKing: put on top of the fact starborns naturally have more power over outsiders, or some extra foothold
[12:21 PM] raidem: Erlking and Kringle were waiting for him to give orders on the time spell against the Wild Hunt.  By waiting on Harry's order and free willed choice, it backed up Kringles action with free will/starborn choice.(edited)
[12:21 PM] ZQKing: I also suspect that a starborn leading the hunt gives them some sort of edge against outsidfers
[12:22 PM] ZQKing: something about free will ye
[12:22 PM] raidem: Starborn does give edge against Outsiders.(edited)
[12:25 PM] raidem: Hey, I'm wondering if a Starborn -Harry (not necessarily -Harry from Mirror Mirror but something like him) TT's into past and leads to killing off the past Queens.  He had been compromised by Nemesis and attempted to change things.  This is why Mab and Titania are nervous about Harry.  And, why Mab keeps her enemies (implying Harry is her enemy) close.  Our Mab has already seen a enemy Harry in action in events that led to killing off prior Mab/Titania.(edited)

I think Maeve's plan was to trigger the Banefire on Nov. 1st, but the Trans-Dimensional Nature of Demonreach required her to "toss the rock" from Oct.31. 

Even if this is the plan, you have to prove that Nov 1st when the banefire is triggered isn't Halloween (cosmic Halloween).  (Bob tells Harry he has until the first natural birdsong in the morning of 11/1 which signals the end of Halloween.)  Otherwise, the date doesn't matter. It's Halloween in both cases.

We have to ask ourself.  Assuming Bob's model is correct, The Banefire will go off 'by tomorrow' November 1st.  Will the banefire go off on the Halloween part of Nov 1st or the nonHalloween part of Nov 1st.  It decides the issue of whether the Prisoners can be released as immortals vs. mortals.  If they are mortals, then the banefire kills them and whatever power/mantles they have go up for grabs.  If they are released as immortals, the banefire hits them hard but survive in some state to wreak havoc.

[groinkick]

(click to show/hide)

Even if this is the plan, you have to prove that Nov 1st when the banefire is triggered isn't Halloween (cosmic Halloween).  (Bob tells Harry he has until the first natural birdsong in the morning of 11/1 which signals the end of Halloween.)  Otherwise, the date doesn't matter. It's Halloween in both cases.

We have to ask ourself.  Assuming Bob's model is correct, The Banefire will go off 'by tomorrow' November 1st.  Will the banefire go off on the Halloween part of Nov 1st or the nonHalloween part of Nov 1st.  It decides the issue of whether the Prisoners can be released as immortals vs. mortals.  If they are mortals, then the banefire kills them and whatever power/mantles they have go up for grabs.  If they are released as immortals, the banefire hits them hard but survive in some state to wreak havoc.

Bob knows that Halloween is a time that can kill Immortals...  There may be other ways...  Bane fire may be one of those ways.  The time of year might not matter if a Bane fire self destruct goes off.

Maeve probably chose that time because she knew that Mab would be vulnerable on that day to take her Mantle....  Nemesis may have fooled her into setting off the self destruct by leaving that little part out when she was influenced into thinking she should destroy the island.

[raidem]

Bob knows that Halloween is a time that can kill Immortals...  There may be other ways...  Bane fire may be one of those ways.  The time of year might not matter if a Bane fire self destruct goes off.

I've thought of it too.  Still, if that is the case then it would be an operative conjunction similar to Halloween. So the argument between EG and myself would still largely be in effect.  There were many issues in play with him.  Some being my statement that many of the beings imprisoned within Demonreach had mantles/powers that could pass/consumed by others upon them dying.  He preferred a case in which they walked free not killed which is why he was insistent upon a nonHalloween Nov 1st event.  If Banefire does the same thing as Halloween, it renders his intended argument mute.

Maeve probably chose that time because she knew that Mab would be vulnerable on that day to take her Mantle....  Nemesis may have fooled her into setting off the self destruct by leaving that little part out when she was influenced into thinking she should destroy the island.

I agree, but I think it possible Maeve knew it wouldn't or unlikely to work and therefore it would be a standoff between herself and her mom just like what happened with some flexibility built in.  To tie this into my Murphy/Mab theory, having both Mab and Murphy (or Molly per Ms. Duck) there on the island when it goes off, or Mab and Molly if you prefer Ms. Duck's theory, would make an entire history vulnerable whereby TTMurphy, TTHarry and allies never go back into the past to assist Murphy in assuming the Lady mantle... It would have unmade Maeve, Sarissa and so much of my timeline rendering our reality a complete wreck as far back as 1000+ years ago.  Truly when Sharkface (HWWBefore) says Mab would cease to be a problem, he wasn't kidding according to my or Ms. Duck's theory.

“My boss might not go along with this plan,” I said. “After tonight, Mab will no longer be a concern to anyone.”

I've wondered before about trying to undo a TT pretzel like I've suggested.  I don't think it is as simple as taking out Murphy.  There has to be more to it than just that.  And, I think that situation on Demonreach would/could qualify.

[groinkick]

I've thought of it too.  Still, if that is the case then it would be an operative conjunction similar to Halloween. So the argument between EG and myself would still largely be in effect.  There were many issues in play with him.  Some being my statement that many of the beings imprisoned within Demonreach had mantles/powers that could pass/consumed by others upon them dying.  He preferred a case in which they walked free not killed which is why he was insistent upon a nonHalloween Nov 1st event.  If Banefire does the same thing as Halloween, it renders his intended argument mute.

This I don't know about...  Like the Skin walkers, I don't think those are Mantles, they just are..  Kind of like Vampires but much more powerful.  Most Mantles seem to be of importance, if they were locked up (Mab for example being threatened by Harry) may very well create a huge amount of damage to the structure of things.  I'm leaning towards the idea that Mantles may be locked into very specific groups.

Dragons are incredibly powerful, and important but when they die...  That's it, gone, no Mantle. 

If someone does have a Mantle, the Warden would probably kill them come Halloween to ensure that the Mantle of responsibility doesn't cause too much damage to reality, and ensure those responsibilities are fulfilled.  Like Harry could have locked up Nemesis infected Maeve in September, and then kill her on Halloween so that the Lady's Mantle returns to Winter returning balance to Summer/Winter.

[raidem]

Isn't there a WOJL on human ideas creating these entities/mantles.  And that as long as these exist in the minds of humans, they don't cease to exist.  So in this fashion, this 'mantle/mask' doesn't just disappear.  I think it needs to be assigned to Oblivion before that happens.

Dragons are incredibly powerful, and important but when they die...  That's it, gone, no Mantle. 

But can something come along and assume the mask/mantle that is left. When I say mask/mantle I'm talking about the idea that is anchored by Human idea and thought.

The Dragons exist so long as humans know about them.  It actually starts to make sense now after reading the Amber series.  If you kill the Dragon, a shadow of the Dragon continues to exist.  Even if the world upon which the Dragon is killed is destroyed, Corwin could using a shadow of this world and all its creatures, features reanimate it into a nearly 'perfect' copy.

[groinkick]

Isn't there a WOJL on human ideas creating these entities/mantles.  And that as long as these exist in the minds of humans, they don't cease to exist.  So in this fashion, this 'mantle/mask' doesn't just disappear.  I think it needs to be assigned to Oblivion before that happens.

Well I'm saying that the Mantle being locked up on Demon Reach might still exist but it's trapped and unable to fulfill the responsibilities it has, causing damage.  So I don't know if there would be many Mantles locked up on DR, only powerful Beings.  Drakul for example I doubt is a Mantle.  Locking him up would be ok.  Mother Winter on the other hand would be devastating to reality if locked up there.  So I just don't think Mantle wearers would be locked up there, at least not any that are of importance to reality.

The Dragons exist so long as humans know about them.

No...  Michael killed one.  It's gone.  Not returned.  There is no Mantle for it.  I am in the camp that there are those that have Mantles created by belief/ritual, and there are those that simply exist.  Dragons I believe are celestial beings that did not require belief, they simply exist.  Same for TWG, Outsiders, and others.

[raidem]

I think it was Mab's absence on Earth and her job that would do hideous things to Earth, not necessarily what she could do down below.  And, I think there might be things of Mab's weight class in the prison.

No...  Michael killed one.  It's gone.  Not returned.  There is no Mantle for it.

I know what you are saying.  I also know about Amber and that Jim drew much material from it.  Jim also has parallel reality's within the Dresdenverse where there are likely those Dragon's alive and well.  So, I don't think it's gone in teh absolute sense of the word. And, in the Amber sense, it could be recreated since a shadow of it would be out there somewhere.

It's like Sue.  She died 60Million+ years ago. And yet, Harry was able to reach out into the 'shadows' and reach her spirit and strengthen the connection between her and her bones.  Sue's spirit being out there is very like what occurs in Amber.  The Dragon likely has this 'shadow' as well.  And that isn't to mention the fact there are other parallel realities in which the Dragon may be alive.

One other thing on the mantle debate.  The argument didn't just hinge on their being mantles within Demonreach.  I argued that there would be power that could be consumed/gobbled up on Halloween with the destruction of the entities by the banefire.  EG still didn't want the banefire to release any of the power by the entities within because it wasn't Halloween.

[raidem]

“Idiots,” he breathed. “Even if they could defeat the banefire . . .” “Wait,” I said. “Banefire?” “The fail-safe,” Vadderung said. “The fire the island showed you.” “Right. It’ll kill everything held there rather than let them escape, right?” “It is the only way,” Vadderung said. “If anyone managed to set free the things in the Well . . .” “Seems like it would be bad,” I said. “Not bad,” Vadderung said. “The end.”

“So it’s going to happen sometime today or tonight.” Vadderung nodded. “And nearby.” “Why?”

More evidence to support that Halloween proper was the pivotal showdown period.

“This is perfect,” she said. “In one night I’m going to unleash the Sleepers, slay a starborn, put an end to this troublesome mortal city, and begin a war between Summer and Winter. By the time the real assault on the Gates begins, Winter and Summer will be hunting one another in the night, and be so busy gouging out one another’s eyes that they’ll never see what is coming—all thanks to me. And you, of course. I couldn’t have done this at all without you.”

Part of their plan is to bypass the banefire but that requires coopting Harry it seems.  This is said near the end of the fight when Maeve gets a degree of control over Harry.

“This is how it is supposed to be,” Maeve purred. “Knight and Lady, together. Fucking like animals. Taking what we please.” Her mouth turned up into a smile. “I thought you’d never let it in. Let it in deep, where I could touch.” Her lovely face took on a feigned, youthful innocence. “But I can touch it now, can’t I?” I growled. I’d forgotten how to do whatever that other thing was. All I could think about was the need. Claim her as a mate. Take whatever I pleased from her. Make her mine. Except . . . Wait. A fluttering surge of pure terror went through me, and it was energy enough to let me rip the Winter from my thoughts, to push it back. It didn’t want to go. It fought me every inch of the way, howling, filled with raw lust for flesh and for blood.  My ribs suddenly ached. My head spun a little. I suddenly needed that hand on the ground to keep my balance. Maeve saw it the second I regained control. Her eyelids lowered almost closed, and she breathed, “Ah. So close. But perhaps there is still time. Is that your staff, wizard, or are you just happy to see me?” I bared my teeth and said, “Maeve . . .”

That was Maeve attempting to co-opt Harry.

“I know exactly what I have done,” Maeve snarled. “I have beaten you. This was never about the sleepers, or this accursed isle, or the lives of mortal insects. This was about beating you, you hidebound hag. About using your own games against you. Kill me now, and you risk destroying the balance of Winter and Summer forever, throwing all into chaos.”

Maeve then admits it wasn't about the sleepers, or the isle, or the mortals.  It was about besting Mab.

So we have a changing goal post of what was to be accomplished throughout the story.  I think there were several hurdles that Harry/allies had to jump over to 'win' or not 'lose.'