We see 1000ish years ago?

[raidem]

We have this WOJ:

No.  Mab was not the first Mab.  Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth.  She was her sidekick and handmaiden.  And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too.  So she got to be much more powerful and awesome.  But that was a while back.  When that happened.  And the same thing with Titania.  The Winter Queens actually died.  The last time things got awful in the wizard world.  So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they're a bit nervous.  They're a bit nervous about Dresden.  Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden.  Mab is keeping her enemies close.

How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.

Is Nic older than Mab?
He is.

The first quote is the main one that is relevant.  I included the others from this link made by Serack http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48717.msg2258880.html#msg2258880.

My main theory Murphy/Mab requires that Murphy revisit this time.  That said, this thread asks the question if we will see from Harry's point of view in a time traveling book the events when both Queens died.  Jim mentions these events in WOJ, but the avg reader really has no knowledge of this.  So for it to be germane to the story other than mere backstory not in the books, Jim will need to write it in.  How does Jim tie it into the plot? Will we get a reveal of who Mab and Titania are prior to ascending.

[Kindler]

We have this WOJ:
The first quote is the main one that is relevant.  I included the others from this link made by Serack http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48717.msg2258880.html#msg2258880.

My main theory Murphy/Mab requires that Murphy revisit this time.  That said, this thread asks the question if we will see from Harry's point of view in a time traveling book the events when both Queens died.  Jim mentions these events in WOJ, but the avg reader really has no knowledge of this.  So for it to be germane to the story other than mere backstory not in the books, Jim will need to write it in.  How does Jim tie it into the plot? Will we get a reveal of who Mab and Titania are prior to ascending.

I think that we will learn about it, but that there won't be a time travel book at all, let alone back to this time period. I think that there may be some limited time travel, but that it'll either be for a very, very specific goal, or that Harry will get stranded in time around Proven Guilty, and he'll have to figure out a way to get back.

As for learning about Hastings and such, I think Odin will provide the exposition; I doubt we'll see it unfold on the page. You're talking about major, major butterfly effect stuff when you go that far back; Harry kills a guy, and his entire lineage for a thousand years is wiped out. These are the tops of a lot of family trees, including mine (my furthest traced ancestry is to the Domesday Book, circa 1086, and there is virtually no trace of birth or baptismal records that survive today beyond that). We're talking thousands of people over 30-40 generations. Considering Harry often leaves a body count, he could totally reshape history just by virtue of being himself.

Maybe he'll receive some kind of vision, or will get a Bob-theater movie, or some such thing, but I highly doubt Harry will ever go back that far.

[peregrine]

Agreed.  I doubt we're going to see it, but probably going to hear about it.  I'd give good odds it'll be something we learn about early on in a book as it will be relevant to what Harry needs to do for the plot.

[wardenferry419]

If Mab tells her story about becoming Queen; it will possibly be the same book she dies in.

[groinkick]

I think we will...  Jim said that Mab keeps her enemies close, and Titania is fearful of Harry...  My guess is we will for sure find out why they see him as a threat, and it will be related to what happened in the past.

[Serack]

We have this WOJ:
The first quote is the main one that is relevant.  I included the others from this link made by Serack http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48717.msg2258880.html#msg2258880.

My main theory Murphy/Mab requires that Murphy revisit this time.  That said, this thread asks the question if we will see from Harry's point of view in a time traveling book the events when both Queens died.  Jim mentions these events in WOJ, but the avg reader really has no knowledge of this.  So for it to be germane to the story other than mere backstory not in the books, Jim will need to write it in.  How does Jim tie it into the plot? Will we get a reveal of who Mab and Titania are prior to ascending.

Wait, just checking, is your main theory that Murphy=Mab?

Because I'm pretty sure Murphy doesn't have a twin.

Can we get a break down of the biological relationships between the various Fae Queens we have seen on screen?
Of particular interest - Maeve and Sarissa, were they actually Mab's kids (biological sense)? If so, who was Mab's baby daddy?
Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters.
Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.

[raidem]

I've dealt with that a few times. And, I agreed it was a hurdle.

 Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters
1) The mantles make Mab and Titania 'actual twin sisters.' (genetically speaking)
2) The mantles are actual twin sisters.
3) Murphy has an actual twin sister (a deal we don't know about)
4) Murphy becomes Mab, her Mirror self becomes Titania
5) An temporal event 1000+ years ago causes two Murphy's to appear (similar somewhat to Mirror self)
<curveball: misleading WOJ in some way>

Something along those lines above. It still requires these twin sisters to become Winter Lady and Summer Lady. Then both ascend nearly 1000+ years ago.

The other theory is that Murphy succeeds to be Mab in the future rather than past.

[Quantus]

To the OP, I dont really expect us to be shown ANY of the globally significant past events.  Seeing more personally significant events like the Justin confrontation, Harry's trial, or the death of his parents might happen, Michael Vs Dragon would be cool.  And getting some of the specific historic era events that have been mentions might happen (in Short story form) like the youth of the current SC members or the story of Klaus the Toymaker. 

But I dont expect to get the any of the globally huge events on page; no Hastings battle, no Arthur, no Crucifixion, or Kemmler Death or previous Ladies. 

[raidem]

GOOGLE AUDIENCE: “Silly Dresden Files question. I remember in Cold Days the shenanigans regarding the origin of Demonreach. And can we expect more time shenanigans in future books?”

JB: “More time shenanigans? SIR, one of the Laws of Magic states that you cannot mess with time like that! OF COURSE, there will be more time shenanigans! I only established the seven Laws of Magic so I could have Dresden methodically break them one by one!”

[raidem]

I'm talking about my TTMurphy=Mab theory but will change to a generic case for the remainder.

Assume Person A(Murphy) time travels into the past (1000+ years) to assume a mantle, say that of X(Lady=>Mab).
Person A with X(as Mab) then goes through history to finally arrive when Person A lives (Murphy born is playing in events we see onscreen)
There is overlap and interaction between Person A and Person A with X (as Mab) onscreen going toward an event in which Person A time travels into past.

My question is how would you go about undoing this cycle.  Would simply trying to kill Person A do the trick.  I don't think so because we know Person A with X exists.  So, it brings me to the case of Arctis Tor and Demonreach. If you were to kill both Person A and Person A with X then you can unmake or at least have a better chance at undoing the cycle completely and wreaking havoc on the entire timeline dependent on Person A with X assuming their position 1000+ years ago.  This applies to both my and Ms. Duck's theory by the way as both Molly and Murphy were present on each occasion in which it could be argued that Mab was in danger.

What do you guys think. Can you think of instances of time travel in literature changes things but then an attempt is made to change the change.  And how would that apply to this situation.

[raidem]

Back to the future 2...

Don't remember for sure but the show Heroes there was some time travel that was pretty confusing at times.

If Murphy is Mab then I'm thinking that somehow Murphy along with her sister are pulled back in time..  Her sister would become Titania. 

I could actually see a scenario where there is some sort of Murphy family gathering again, and Harry is there with his daughter.  Shit hits the fan, and Harry and Murphy need to go do something and for some reason her sister must come along (probably to avoid dying)...  They are then pulled back in time somehow.  I could see Jim pulling some lines from the Back to the Future movies too...  Like Harry needing to go back in time and when he tells Murphy, and her sister to stay behind the person allowing them to time travel says "This involves them too, Harry"

[raidem]

I'm going to add Amber to this list now.

When Amberites get involved in things and particularly if they bring people along with them, time travel and travel to parallel worlds become 'EASY'.  So the question is, is there a Amber equivalent in the Dresdenverse nearby Harry.  I think Mac might qualify as one.

Amberites, or even Chaosians, those who have walked the requisite Pattern, Logrus etc are highly able to reach parallel worlds.  They can reach a specific world in a past extreme past state, past state, present state.  They may be able to get to a future state.  They can even see their own shadows of themselves because they had already walked that way.  Any ways, a Amberite, Chaosian, or some equivalent operates on higher plane of existence whereby they can easily shortcut the problems that we see.

I think it was this property that allowed Merlin to create Demonreach in five times (or more) all at once.  He had access to Amberite, Chaosian blood or some mantle/grace.

[kris.vickers]

What resource might have info on the time period in question? Ivy? Maybe Bob? Bob's memories can be locked away or forgotten as we've seen. Can the same be said for Ivy? Is there any data loss from Archive to Archive? Perhaps sensitive time periods are redacted to a certain point? Or even classified enough that Ivy doesn't have access.

[raidem]

If it is a written record, Ivy knows it.  So there are people who know the history of things fairly well. 

There may be some restriction on temporal matters within the Archive to be opened in case of 'shenanigans.'  The Archive tended to be Oracles after all so they probably are tuned into temporal matters as well as linear ones.

Oh, and to tie this in with Amber, there is a GhostWheel that Merlin creates that is somewhat like the Archive but on a much higher metaversal scale.  I'd say if there was anyone to invent the Archive, it would be GhostWheel.

[kris.vickers]

Unless Molly gets ahold of them... Which means anyone else with that type of skill using mind manipulation on the Archive would screw up the history books from then on.