Marcone's heritage

[jonas]

Side Question:  Assuming Harry is correct and KotC do in fact need some Royal Lineage, does it need to be "Old Blood", as in some Inherited trait?  Could a modern King(pin?) arise in a single generation?  Would non-human 'Kingdoms' like the White  Court count, even if /they/ think of themselves and ruling/cultivation the human population?

I think it requires royal lineage from the time King was considered a divine authoritive right in itself. It was a 'mantle' of power in the oldest sense. The blood descendants of this time inherited this ability to take up said authority... course said descendants are now very wide spread indeed. But King lineages of old were actively blessed when taking up authority, so idk if modern 'Pin's would count.
Although again, it might also be relative to the practitioner's bloodlines, can 't shake the 3 kings/Magi connection.

[Arjan]

Side Question:  Assuming Harry is correct and KotC do in fact need some Royal Lineage, does it need to be "Old Blood", as in some Inherited trait?  Could a modern King(pin?) arise in a single generation?  Would non-human 'Kingdoms' like the White  Court count, even if /they/ think of themselves and ruling/cultivation the human population?

The kingship, the tradition, the story must be compatible with the knighthood.

Not the real history maybe because that would exclude that war criminal Charlemagne but the myth. Aragorn, Arthur, ....

In the end the dresdenverse is all about story.

[Quantus]

The kingship, the tradition, the story must be compatible with the knighthood.

Not the real history maybe because that would exclude that war criminal Charlemagne but the myth. Aragorn, Arthur, ....

In the end the dresdenverse is all about story.

Hmm, lets chase that thought. 

Two questions:
1) To what degree does this change with Changing times and popular belief/morality?  Assuming that such an image that arises form the global population would work similar to how Santa Clause can still be a sword-wielding bad-ass rather than a kindly toymaker.

2)To what degree does the subjectivity, especially in conflicting perspectives on opposite sides of a War, impact this role?  I mean, The Crusades theoretically had the support of Heaven (in a world where heaven gets involved).  Similarly, in RL Vlad the Impaler is a nation hero in his home nation, but a literal Monster by popular myth.   



Keeping in mind that the power of the Swords are not like the faux-shroud or anything similar, since they are acting as a direct conduit for TWG him/her/itself to communicate and empower a mortal, but (per Day One) is doing it personally and directly. 

[Arjan]

Hmm, lets chase that thought. 

Two questions:
1) To what degree does this change with Changing times and popular belief/morality?  Assuming that such an image that arises form the global population would work similar to how Santa Clause can still be a sword-wielding bad-ass rather than a kindly toymaker.

We now have sir Butters.

Everything changes even immortals, ask mother Summer, but it changes slowly.

2)To what degree does the subjectivity, especially in conflicting perspectives on opposite sides of a War, impact this role?  I mean, The Crusades theoretically had the support of Heaven (in a world where heaven gets involved).  Similarly, in RL Vlad the Impaler is a nation hero in his home nation, but a literal Monster by popular myth.   

If the scion is of suitable knightly material....

Keeping in mind that the power of the Swords are not like the faux-shroud or anything similar, since they are acting as a direct conduit for TWG him/her/itself to communicate and empower a mortal, but (per Day One) is doing it personally and directly.

Be it so but they are clearly shown to conform to human stories, the story does matter.

And I am not convinced there is a real kwalitative difference between twg and other gods like the hindu pantheon. Human story and belief is what they need to express themselves here and it clearly describes how they express themselves here.

Michael shrugged and took a thoughtful sip of beer. “The Grail is the most powerful symbol of God’s love and sorrow on the face of the earth, Harry. I don’t see how he could use it to do harm—but if Nicodemus sacrificed so much to acquire it, I suspect that he does.”

It is still a symbol. The power of the grail can be just the focuused power all those people have invested in that story. Just like the fake only better.

[Quantus]

We now have sir Butters.

Everything changes even immortals, ask mother Summer, but it changes slowly.

I agree with the general statement but I dont think I see how it applies here?

If the scion is of suitable knightly material....

By which definition of "suitable" is my point, I guess. 

Be it so but they are clearly shown to conform to human stories, the story does matter.

When?  I cant think of a single example of this relating to the swords.   

And I am not convinced there is a real kwalitative difference between twg and other gods like the hindu pantheon. Human story and belief is what they need to express themselves here and it clearly describes how they express themselves here.

It is still a symbol. The power of the grail can be just the focuused power all those people have invested in that story. Just like the fake only better.
[/quote]Is it? I mean, there is no christian tradition of Magic Swords, and none of the "known" legends of the swords include that part or any real religious aspects, and at least one predates the Crucifixion itself.  Sure, there is a lot of popular belief in the Arthurian Legends, and could indirectly feed Amoracchius via that, but I think Id argue that for "Fake" power to accumulate like that it would need to actually BE known, and widely, rather than secret knowledge known to only a few

[Arjan]

I agree with the general statement but I dont think I see how it applies here?By which definition of "suitable" is my point, I guess. 
When?  I cant think of a single example of this relating to the swords.   


Is it? I mean, there is no christian tradition of Magic Swords, and none of the "known" legends of the swords include that part or any real religious aspects, and at least one predates the Crucifixion itself.  Sure, there is a lot of popular belief in the Arthurian Legends, and could indirectly feed Amoracchius via that, but I think Id argue that for "Fake" power to accumulate like that it would need to actually BE known, and widely, rather than secret knowledge known to only a few

The myths and legends of the real world are not always the same as those in the dresdenverse and I think with the swords we have a clear example. There is no christian tradition about the coins either, this is a Jim Butcher invention.

However in the dresdenverse there is.

[wardenferry419]

Now, I am weak on religion. But, isn't there an idea that whatever the Pope holds true on earth than God will hold true in heaven. So, maybe the King-figure has to be blessed by a religious figure for him to be a true king by heaven.  And these are the kings whose descendants can be KotC.

[Kindler]

Now, I am weak on religion. But, isn't there an idea that whatever the Pope holds true on earth than God will hold true in heaven. So, maybe the King-figure has to be blessed by a religious figure for him to be a true king by heaven.  And these are the kings whose descendants can be KotC.

That is a common misconception about the nature of the Pope's Infallibility (which was taken to extreme levels of ridiculousness in "Dogma"). Boiling it down as much as possible, the Pope's declarations are only held infallible as they pertain to the Church itself, and/or are made ex cathedra (when he's sitting on the Holy See, his pretty awesome throne). Still, I'm quibbling, and I think your point may be valid.

Saladin had the support of both Arabs and Muslims (not the same thing), and certainly would have been blessed. None of my primary sources (wrote one of my theses on Saladin) described a ceremony, but I'm sure one took place.

George Washington is the 14th great-grandson of King Edward I (the Longshanks; the bad guy from "Braveheart," which was fun but a total bastardization, as I'm sure you all know. Fun fact: one of my ancestors was knighted by Longshanks, and later was made a feudal baron, though a tiny and relatively insignificant one; technically he was a Baron, but not a Greater Baron (since he didn't inherit the title), and was referred to as Lord of the Manor.) His reign predated the Church of England split, so his rule was "blessed" by the Pope (and he wasn't the head of the church himself), though he never met him personally; it was a proto-divine right permission-type thing.

Shiro was a descendant of the Last King of Okinawa, right? That's Sho Tai, if memory serves. I think they were Confucian, and I don't know enough about their clergy to discuss it with any authority. There was a concept of Heavenly Mandate, as far as I remember, though I have no idea what the Meji Restoration did to that concept, and that's right around the reign of Sho Tai (which was cut short; that's why he was the Last).

Butters's ethnic background is important—if he's Ashkenazi/Khazar, ethnically descended from the Tribe Judah, or if he's descended from converts. If his background is from Judah, it's possible he's descended from David or Solomon.

Oh, and Charlemagne was personally crowned by the Pope, so that one's easy.

[raidem]

Applying what I've learned from Amber and depending on who exactly fits "Corwin", I could argue that Marcone is descended from "Corwin."

Corwin is connected to Yggdrasil and a black crow "Hugi"
Corwin has a son named Merlin.
Corwin is a Prince of Amber and has a family of brothers and sisters with Oberon as his father, and Dworkin as his grandfather.
Corwin has blood of both chaos and order/unicorn.
Corwin created a twinned multiverse by creating a new "Pattern" while there was a pre-existing "Pattern"
Corwin has innate immortality via this "Pattern".  Basically, you must destroy the "Pattern", to destroy this "Corwin." But in destroying both you set in motion the destruction of the multiverse. (It's on a delay with cataclysmic storm).
Characters that could meet the definition of "Corwin" is Odin, Odin's father, Odin's ancestor, Mac.
Corwin also meets the definition of 'royalty.'

Marcone could be descended from this "Corwin."
I find it more likely that Harry is descended from this "Corwin."

[wardenferry419]

Thanks for the summary, Kindler. It was just something that popped into my head.

[Quantus]

The myths and legends of the real world are not always the same as those in the dresdenverse and I think with the swords we have a clear example. There is no christian tradition about the coins either, this is a Jim Butcher invention.

However in the dresdenverse there is.

I meant more in-world.  In world there are no stories about Magic Sword with Nails in them, at least not outside of the Clued-In circles that Know that the knights are a literal Power.  There are legends about Kusanagi, and plenty about Excalibur, but nothing that touches on a Connection to the Divine and so nothing that should actually affect the Truth/Manifestation of the Swords.  Unless you do have an example from the text of the Sword conforming to popular stories and/or mortal belief?


That's not to say the Swords are Immune to the effects of Human Perception, I just think those effects are far more restricted and Carefully Monitored, restricted specifically to the Knights that have been granted the Authority to Use, Change, and even Break them.

[raidem]

-What is the relationship between the Swords and royal blood?*
This was a question posed in one of the unsolved mysteries threads.  I'm glad it is still being debated.

Thinking back on Amber, I was wondering if it corresponds in some way to the families of Order and Chaos.  I think I like the in book explanation better though about having territory and defending it is what corresponds to idea of royalty that the Sword responds too.

[raidem]

I was thinking more about peoples connection to the MacFinn family. I wonder if Tera West intentionally gathered members of the cursed line to form the basis for the Alphas.  That means they could also have been potential Loup Garou's.  She may have been doing that, teaching them about being a wolf so that they could be better able to control themself as a "Loup Garou" should it jump to them.