Marcone's heritage

[Quantus]

But really, who doesn't?

Good Question...Bob?

[Snark Knight]

Fwiw, Im quite confident Marcone has Royal Heritage mixed in there somewhere...   

I wouldn't be surprised to find Mirror Mirror Marcone reformed and carrying a Sword, but I'm not yet convinced Harry is on the right track about royal blood being a requirement.

[raidem]

Oh, I don't think it is a 'requirement.' I think it might be an added plus.

[Arjan]

But really, who doesn't?

Sure but it is only important if you have a substantial claim according to the inheritance laws of the culture of the person you claim as your ancestor.

[groinkick]

Oh, I don't think it is a 'requirement.' I think it might be an added plus.

Perhaps my Marcone theory includes a royal line of some kind! muaha

[peregrine]

Sure but it is only important if you have a substantial claim according to the inheritance laws of the culture of the person you claim as your ancestor.

Is it though.  Do you think that Michael is the first son of the first son of etc... of Charlemagne?  Or Sanya for Saladin?  For the swords, I don't think it takes anything more than some small amount of lineage to work, so, if it makes any kind of difference for Marcone, why would it be any different?  He's certainly not claiming any sort of divine right to rule a specific kingdom based on his bloodline, he's more like a random mercenary who sets up shop based on right of the sword.

[Arjan]

Is it though.  Do you think that Michael is the first son of the first son of etc... of Charlemagne?  Or Sanya for Saladin?  For the swords, I don't think it takes anything more than some small amount of lineage to work, so, if it makes any kind of difference for Marcone, why would it be any different?  He's certainly not claiming any sort of divine right to rule a specific kingdom based on his bloodline, he's more like a random mercenary who sets up shop based on right of the sword.

In the end it is about human beliefs and the belief in royal bloodlines is a belief royal dynasties promoted in the past for obvious reasons but some people really believe it even in the real world. It is about the claim of inheritance, the right of kingship and the responsibilities it brings. That belief has power in the dresdenverse.

This is not about who shares dna, illegitimate children rarely apply, but  about family tree which seldom includes all ancestors but important families in the past always wanted a family tree with important ancestors to brag about and they did want it badly enough to fake it if necessary.

[peregrine]

But again, do you think that Michael is in the direct, strongest lineage from Charlemagne?  That out of the many millions of people, Michael is the one with the most "worthy" family tree?  Because I don't, we've not seen anything to suggest it.

Especially since that's an effectively dead noble family now.  Hell, Shiro is a descendant of the "last" king of Okinawa, which means there are no more kings of Okinawa.  And yet, that counts for the swords.  I mean, hell, the Holy Roman Emperor was once given to a guy whose "Right" was that he was the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of a previous Emperor.  And he sat on the throne.  So I honestly don't think that you need a strong, holds up in court, lineage.  Just that one bit of Royal Blood, that, if you look hard enough, we almost all have.

[groinkick]

But again, do you think that Michael is in the direct, strongest lineage from Charlemagne?  That out of the many millions of people, Michael is the one with the most "worthy" family tree?  Because I don't, we've not seen anything to suggest it.

Especially since that's an effectively dead noble family now.  Hell, Shiro is a descendant of the "last" king of Okinawa, which means there are no more kings of Okinawa.  And yet, that counts for the swords.  I mean, hell, the Holy Roman Emperor was once given to a guy whose "Right" was that he was the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of a previous Emperor.  And he sat on the throne.  So I honestly don't think that you need a strong, holds up in court, lineage.  Just that one bit of Royal Blood, that, if you look hard enough, we almost all have.

Depends on how much a family spreads...  If you have parents having few children, and they have few children, and they have few children....  The blood line really won't spread that much.  Especially if we are talking about say one man who's of importance but not his siblings, or cousins, and it's from that man's direct connection.  Also there may be outside forces killing off that blood line...  Like Shiro being the last descendant of the king of Okinawa...  Michael and his family may be the last  of that particular bloodline as well.

[peregrine]

The thing is, Shiro isn't the last descendant of the king of Okinawa.  He's a descendant of the last king of Okinawa.  One of, presumably, many.  Michael, being the last descendant of Charlemagne is incredibly unlikely, because effectively everyone of European heritage is descended from him, the dude had 60 great grand kids.  Royal families don't just have one or two kids, generally.

And, like the last king of Okinawa, many of those royal titles have ceased to be.  Even if you can prove your direct lineage, you show up to Normandy saying you're the Nth descendant of Robert II, they'll say that's very nice, and then arrest you if you try to take over the government.

Maybe it's true that the Knights are all in direct line for whichever throne.  Possibly.  But that would mean that Michael, who happens to live in Chicago, AND Murphy AND Susan AND Butters are all secretly the One True Heir.  That there are no other better claimants to four different thrones, and also they all happen to be buddies with Harry.  Oh, and Harry himself.  And that's only if he gets it through Malcolm, because otherwise Thomas would be the one who gets it, being older.

[groinkick]

The thing is, Shiro isn't the last descendant of the king of Okinawa.  He's a descendant of the last king of Okinawa.  One of, presumably, many.  Michael, being the last descendant of Charlemagne is incredibly unlikely, because effectively everyone of European heritage is descended from him, the dude had 60 great grand kids.  Royal families don't just have one or two kids, generally.

And, like the last king of Okinawa, many of those royal titles have ceased to be.  Even if you can prove your direct lineage, you show up to Normandy saying you're the Nth descendant of Robert II, they'll say that's very nice, and then arrest you if you try to take over the government.

Maybe it's true that the Knights are all in direct line for whichever throne.  Possibly.  But that would mean that Michael, who happens to live in Chicago, AND Murphy AND Susan AND Butters are all secretly the One True Heir. That there are no other better claimants to four different thrones, and also they all happen to be buddies with Harry.  Oh, and Harry himself.  And that's only if he gets it through Malcolm, because otherwise Thomas would be the one who gets it, being older.

Well I'd guess that anyone can wield a Sword, but the people who wield them for long periods of time (Michael, Shiro, Sonja) are the direct blood relatives.  Now I don't know if this is even part of the lore.  However if I wanted as an author to get around the "we all have some connection" I'd write it so that for example only the oldest child, and their oldest child is considered the direct connection.  This dramatically cuts down the number of people.  For example Michael's father is considered a direct connection, but his fathers younger brother would not be.  Kind of like in the royal families the eldest brother becomes King, and any younger brother is a prince unless the older brother dies or leaves the throne.

[Arjan]

But again, do you think that Michael is in the direct, strongest lineage from Charlemagne?  That out of the many millions of people, Michael is the one with the most "worthy" family tree?  Because I don't, we've not seen anything to suggest it.

Especially since that's an effectively dead noble family now.  Hell, Shiro is a descendant of the "last" king of Okinawa, which means there are no more kings of Okinawa.  And yet, that counts for the swords.  I mean, hell, the Holy Roman Emperor was once given to a guy whose "Right" was that he was the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of a previous Emperor.  And he sat on the throne.  So I honestly don't think that you need a strong, holds up in court, lineage.  Just that one bit of Royal Blood, that, if you look hard enough, we almost all have.

Depends on how you look at it. Most old noble families died out. Most of us don’t have the tradition, the story. If Michael says he descends from Charlemagne that does not mean he digged up his bones and did a dna sequencing, it means there is a living tradition in his family that says so and that is rare.

[peregrine]

Well I'd guess that anyone can wield a Sword, but the people who wield them for long periods of time (Michael, Shiro, Sonja) are the direct blood relatives.

Well, again, damn near everyone is a "direct blood relative," of one sort or another.  But as for the idea that its only the long term Knights who are next in line, I don't think it's supported.  For one, I don't think there's any real difference made between the long term vs short term Knights.  Mostly it seems like they're given the Swords for a job, the life expectancy seems to be awfully short, but no real differentiation was made between the "quality" of their stint.

And if so, that knocks it down from four secret heirs to three secret heirs, who all happen to be living in Chicago, and friends with Harry.  Maybe two if you don't think Murphy's "job offer" counts in the same way Michael and Butters' did.  That's still pushing the bounds of credulity to me.

Plus, if that is the case, it makes Nic's job much easier.  If Molly can track her ancestry back to find Charlemagne, then Nic can track down all the descendants of whatever, so he can then figure out who he's got to keep an eye on.  It would take a lot of prep work, but once he spends a century or so (or having his minions spend a century or so) tracking it down, just checking in every five years on the people on the list will keep it up to date.  And then we're back to the problem of it being either too many to keep track of, in which case it's too many to really be all that special, or enough that he can keep track of them, and then go around, say, killing everyone once they've had a kid, reducing the candidacy for that bloodline to a 6 month old kid in no position to wield a sword.

Basically, I just chalk the whole thing up to Jim not being a genealogist and not quite understanding how much royal blood is out in the world.

[Arjan]

it is not about the bloodline as such, it is about the living tradition, the story.

Is it not strange that someone like Sanya not just descends from Saladin but knows it and immediately says it when asked?

And I do not think it was ever presented as a necessary condition, just as something that helps.

Or used to help in the past. Maybe Butters broke with more than one tradition.

[wardenferry419]

Any possibility that Butters, who is Jewish, is descended from the King of Kings?