(false)peace and the second coming

[jonas]

So, in light of the fact I enjoy reveling in a new find and thought I should share it with others, I wanted to point out something and talk a little about The Antichrist/Biblical apocalypse, which is of course tied into the others(and I can prove it!)
Simply put, when the antichrist first rises he will sign a peace treaty and that will begin the 7 year countdown to the return of Christ. 3 1/2 yrs in the peace will prove false and we will have 3.5 years of living hell instead.
Peace Talks is book 16, the BAT kicks off roughly 3.5 years later(following the yearly schedule in books) and Ends 3.5 years more... Peace Talks is the first sign.
Now the precise person referenced and their exact connection as Antichrist is open for interpretation even after an actual peace accords because of the way the visage of antichrist is actually broken down... but it's very much a mix of Marcone and Harry. Divide known features of the antichrist between the two.(plus Nic as the seedier bits, the blasmphemer. I suspect Lara for my own reasons as well... yea, not female, whatever. I suspect more accurately she may be War's newest incarnation as it was used to strangle the WC)
Anyway... more of what we already know, the end is nigh and all that
(and yes, I probably could make a deeper richer version, but would you believe me anyway lol?)

[khadgar4606]

okay we are out of our depth in here. we can discuss nick trying to enact second coming of Christ via having same old relics jesus have in his time but this is way to apocalypse theory then I want.

as for lara becoming anti Christ nope! nope! nope! she wants to keep herd safe not usher the freaking apocalypse. Its nicky and the nickel heads domain. and Lara is to smart to play proverbial Lilith in the plans.

[Quantus]

Lets first clarify what the actual Role of the Anti-Christ would be in the upcoming BAT? 

For example, the Apocalypse literally means an Uncovering (ie "Revelation") so Id long assumed it would involved the mundane world as a whole becoming aware of the supernatural, mostly likely through some massive and impossible to deny catastrophe or invasion or some such.  As such I could see nearly any character responsible as the Antichrist my that virtue, but they'd be acting as a TruthBringer so they'd hardly be as vilified as the antichrist typically is.  This "Grey Antichrist" could be almost any of our heroes: Harry, Marcone, and with enough irony if could even be one of the knights I suppose.

On the other hand, the term itself comes exclusively from the gospel of John, and is used 4 times in the singular and once in the plural ("As you heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come.").  In that, the author specifically defines it as "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son".  So in that interpretation of their role Id say the Anti-Christ(s) are those that Choose to ally themselves against the forces of TWG and the angels, specifically, so Id say Nic is by far the most appropriate of the known characters but really the Denarians as a Side would all qualify since the plural is referenced.

Or, the more more popular image of the Antichrist is to be the one personally responsible for the BAT itself, either by Choice or by Fate.  By Choice Id list the possible candidates as Elaine, Harry, and Cowl.  By Fate Id call it Elaine, Harry, and Faith Astor.

[jonas]

as for lara becoming anti Christ nope! nope! nope! she wants to keep herd safe not usher the freaking apocalypse.

Yes... and in doing so she will become the new formation of 'war', a stagnant suffocating peace. Have to break down the base elements and apply new spins to the aspects already present...

Lets first clarify what the actual Role of the Anti-Christ would be in the upcoming BAT?

Which one? We have Marcone whose going to apply to the criminal/empirical aspect, Harry who takes on the inhuman Mother and inversion of Christ. Nic..., Nic might be key in actually having a 'rise' or replacement which with the repeating inverse and precisely how things appear to have turned out directly last time(which you can figure out which reign came directly before by remembering the father of the author of Dante's inferno was the previous gatekeeper... Which also tends to prove that as each generation overcomes the veil the previous 'threat' is brought inside and given balance)
Your complicating things too much I think, it should be easy to power point the aspects of the Antichrist and where manifest. He's to do war with the actual forces of 'heaven', in DF terms this is Harry fighting against a process enforced and enacted by the cosmic order of events, the hierchy itself.
lets see.... Will possess supernatural power, will be an atheist, will have jewish ancestory(I am highly suspect of Dresden on that), proud and arrogant,  deal in secrecy whenever possible, skilled in ambiguous speech, brilliant intellectual, deceive many people with words of peace, will be politically powerful, empowered by Satan, he will rule over the supernatural realm of the entire world, he will rule Babylon only in the second half of the 7 years, he will blaspheme God, He will worship satan and call himself a god requiring worship, He will kill the last Christian ushering in an end of the age.
These are the ones I've found currently pertinent for one reason or another.


*ohhh yea, totally germaine to the DF, historically, the antichrist was to be born from Etruscan, yea, that Etruscan :0 the one with the WCV's speech, iirc Ghoul origin connections and Nortia that other Nemesis identity...

[Ananda]

I don’t know that much in-depth about the christian myths, but, since fantasy and magic is real in the DF universe, this is perfect for Deirdre to show up with the jesus mantle later in the story. If Nic plays some significant role in the other faction, then they will have to face each other.

[jonas]

I don’t know that much in-depth about the christian myths, but, since fantasy and magic is real in the DF universe, this is perfect for Deirdre to show up with the jesus mantle later in the story. If Nic plays some significant role in the other faction, then they will have to face each other.

*facepalm* Deidre the savior... finally a theory I despise more than Simon the Cowl. Deidre died for her father, not for humanity.

[Ananda]

*facepalm* Deidre the savior... finally a theory I despise more than Simon the Cowl. Deidre died for her father, not for humanity.

Oh, come now. It’s a fun idea. Ultimate irony for Nic that Deirdre was a true believer in self sacrifice to save the universe and she returns in the opposite “court” as a figure opposed to him. Also, she said in the book that she was saving the worldin her candid chat with Dresden.

“We,” she said, with perfect serenity, “are fighting to save the world.”

Also, Nic gave her a gentle admonishment for loving too much.

[jonas]

Oh, come now. It’s a fun idea. Ultimate irony for Nic that Deirdre was a true believer in self sacrifice to save the universe and she returns in the opposite “court” as a figure opposed to him. Also, she said in the book that she was saving the worldin her candid chat with Dresden. Also, Nic gave her a gentle admonishment for loving too much.

I mean, technicality she might have returned in the cosmic order, but I don't see a direct JC connection. I think though, that was part of how she was safe from the 'Enemy'. In order to be reborn into the cosmic side of things I think you have to you know move on and face judgement. Which I think is the Enemy/Adversary role currently filled by Nemesis. In the Jewish Cabbalistic sense the inversion of our angel/star, God was Satan, replaced classically by Lilith, who judges imbalance in the world. I think Nemesis and the idea of Lilith meet a head in the current Adversary.
Anyway, point being I think her staying there was a way to avoid Final Judgement in favor of a purgatory type existence, in a section of the Underworlds. Plural.
*the admonishment I kinda understand but I don't have enough hard points to make. Something to do with being pure of mind/soul so as to not have any cracks. which is a paltry explanation I know, but something about what Nic said about being his path combined with what I know about Walkers and walking paths makes me think Nic is overly aware of how afterlife formalizes itself to the newly deceased, How starborn and everything else is connected. He IS a spymaster.

[wardenferry419]

I saw that facepalm and comment about Simon the Cowl.  But, it's all good. Everybody has their quirky theories.

[Kindler]

I actually like the Red Court or the Red King as War. The Red Horseman is usually described as either war or slaughter, which fits the Red Court pretty well.

Any of the Vampire Courts could get pegged as Famine; they do spread Hunger (or thirst). The White Court could actually be the White Rider—that's Conquest or Pestilence. Considering Thomas's line about Lara seeking greater power, actually going for control now, Conquest seems like it might fit.

Harry's the Pale Horseman, as far as I'm concerned—once he gets the Blackstaff. Also, check out that Hades (and possibly the Wild Hunt) reference(s) in the New American Standard Bible translation:

"When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come." I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth." (Rev 6:7-8).

Now, other translations refer to it specifically as Hell, which could mean either Nicky and the Nickelheads, Hell itself, or that Satan decided Humanity was on the home team.

If Monsieur Butcher (pronounced "boo-shay" in an outrageous accent) does decide to adapt Revelations, it's perfectly possible for all of visions to come true, but none of it to mean what biblical scholars assumed; it's all about Outsiders.

It's pretty fun to think of ways to adapt the Horsemen, or the Seals (and Vials/Bowls and Trumpets) into a world like the Dresden universe. Ditto any of the end-of-days scenarios. They can all actually coexist with enough application of "From a certain point of view," too, so it's not like we have to only pick one.

[Rasins]

"...by the wild beasts of the earth."

What about the Erlking?

[jonas]

@ Kindler... well.. the thing is is those horsemen are aspected those things by proxy. I think the original aspects break down into Fear/rage Despair/hate(there seems to be some bleed over between the two reactionary responses) Lust(which ties into Greed and maybe envy too), and basically death/non existence. I think I have the 5 primary forces that keep repeating in the DF pegged down to the reincarnation of the 4 horsemen and the Chooser of fate.
and what's more is I think you can see other incarnations and where they took those mentioned directly, war, pestilence, ect. I think all 5 exist on Archangel level but were intentionally broken down into the courts and other things so as to not be a direct mirror(like they broke down the two Mothers into whole courts under them). Ever notice the 4 Queens are all riding one of the same colors as is rode by a horsemen of the Apocalypse in SK? Harry is seen by Denton with Hwwbh as a form of Hell behind him just like he might be the earthly carnation of Death?(which I've been looking into recently under the guise that Death is what births 'the end', so time to reexamine those Daughters... and the idea it would have ended practitioners with a death so close to Merlin's bloodline)Uriel, decider of fate uses the 3 swords under him to achieve his goal just as death uses all three?
Red King as war makes sense kinda, but I think the Whites are connected to Lust... which translates as Famine, see Dresden's monologue on Club Zero and the end state of WCV's running things. The Horsemen are deep into the DF, Nic and co basically represent their original purpose in Greek mythos now, to spread the apocalypse out similar to the Necronomicon, the Fallen themselves mirror the holders, taking the mirroring availability away from the originals. The Archangel bit because, withing the courts there are 4 supernatural entities still holding a certain freedom of will/mortal power. EK, Kringle, and the 2 Knights. those are the bits of the graces that hold the choice of balance. Breaking it down provides more and more insulation.
When looking remember there are versions who rose and those who fell,(and those torn apart intentionally) most of those get got though.

*iirc the original translation was Hel, as in the goddess/place and before that plain Hades as the patron/place.

[Quantus]

Which one? We have Marcone whose going to apply to the criminal/empirical aspect, Harry who takes on the inhuman Mother and inversion of Christ. Nic..., Nic might be key in actually having a 'rise' or replacement which with the repeating inverse and precisely how things appear to have turned out directly last time(which you can figure out which reign came directly before by remembering the father of the author of Dante's inferno was the previous gatekeeper... Which also tends to prove that as each generation overcomes the veil the previous 'threat' is brought inside and given balance)

Your complicating things too much I think, it should be easy to power point the aspects of the Antichrist and where manifest. He's to do war with the actual forces of 'heaven', in DF terms this is Harry fighting against a process enforced and enacted by the cosmic order of events, the hierchy itself.

lets see.... Will possess supernatural power, will be an atheist, will have jewish ancestory(I am highly suspect of Dresden on that), proud and arrogant,  deal in secrecy whenever possible, skilled in ambiguous speech, brilliant intellectual, deceive many people with words of peace, will be politically powerful, empowered by Satan, he will rule over the supernatural realm of the entire world, he will rule Babylon only in the second half of the 7 years, he will blaspheme God, He will worship satan and call himself a god requiring worship, He will kill the last Christian ushering in an end of the age.

I wouldnt say complicating things, just trying to tease out your underlying assumptions.  So, if Im up to speed with your theory, your seeing his/her roles as:

War Against the Universal Order, but also War Against TWG, specifically.

Meanwhile you see their expected Traits as:

- Magically Powerful
- Politically Powerful, Mundane
- Politically Powerful, Supernatural
- Atheist
- Jewish (genetic)
- Proud (as in the Sin)
- Prone to Clandestine methods
- Deceitfully Charming
- Vocally Anti- TWG
- Personally Pro-Satan/Pro-hell
- Empowered by the Forces of Judeo-christian Hell (Specifically)
- Associated with Rulership of Babylon (Literally or Symbolically?)


That about sum up your Antichrist vision?

[jonas]

I wouldnt say complicating things, just trying to tease out your underlying assumptions.  So, if Im up to speed with your theory, your seeing his/her roles as:

War Against the Universal Order, but also War Against TWG, specifically./

well yes and no, I don't think TWG himself is going to twig to be a secret bad guy or something, but the order of events that lead to the coming Apocalypti is something set into motion by the way the universe is ordered itself... Say Mab and Titania are gone(with those falling stars and Mab's word) so the Mothers themselves are enforced into try to entreat a new balance? MS especially as the 'creator' and her shelf full of death jars makes me think of her as the holder of God's 7 bowls of wrath for instance.

Meanwhile you see their expected Traits as:

- Magically Powerful
- Politically Powerful, Mundane
- Politically Powerful, Supernatural
- Atheist
- Jewish (genetic)
- Proud (as in the Sin)
- Prone to Clandestine methods
- Deceitfully Charming
- Vocally Anti- TWG
- Personally Pro-Satan/Pro-hell
- Empowered by the Forces of Judeo-christian Hell (Specifically)
- Associated with Rulership of Babylon (Literally or Symbolically?)


That about sum up your Antichrist vision?

The pieces I see in play, yea. Obviously theres some overlapping.
Wanna get real technical about it. I think Harry is THE Anti-Christ, Marcone is the one who is going to represent his dark rise and Nic is going to be the Spiritual identity we think of in it's association.
It's a theory woven through Yeat's second coming and the Gyre. I think the repeating Archatypes of Harry and Marcone equate to previously being Harry/Lucifer and Marcone Being TWC(not in a TT way, in a starborn generational way) every time history repeats itself it inverts from last time(with... apparently people/immortals from previous era's being able to fall or rise based upon being alive during said inverse actions of fate.
i'd have to organize my thoughts a bit on this one,(the inverse is hard to explain but there are examples) But basically TWC saved us by being good, Harry's going to save us by becoming Our Monster. The actual evil of TAC(the anti Christ)is going to be spread around in a balance... which I think Harry will be The Deity all other deities balance out, He'll literally be one whole side of a pantheon that everyone else balances this aspect or that one. Everythings going to change in the cosmic order.