Queen Succession Rules

[raidem]

We know that generally speaking the rules for succession goes as follows: Lady=>Queen=>Mother.  I, in another thread, wondered about the circumstances of the events in which the last time both Queens of Winter and Summer died, but for the purposes of this thread, I'm just focused on Summer since Mother Winter has remained constant and Mother Summer has abdicated at some point.

So, here it goes.  What would happen if all three Summer mantles at the same time became vacant.  Mother Summer abdicated, Queen and Lady died all at the same time.  The succession rules then are temporarily moot.  I would imagine each mantle then would seek out vessels based on a particular priority list which has a series of considerations. The priority list could include appropriate reflections relative to the mantle, potential of the individual, proximity, and others.  I don't think they would necessarily have to wait for the Lady to first get a vessel to ascend, thereby freeing the others to choose.

What do you guys think?  What are some other issues of succession you can come up with?

Note: This thread sprang from another thread where I proposed a situation where the Murphy Family Reunion gets transported 1000+ years into the past.  This event would be potentially similar to when Milwaukee vanished in the Unseelie Incursion in 1994 and was replaced with forests untouched by civilization.  I tied it in with Murphy's eventual ascension to Mab, Mother Summers (Mrs. Spunklecrief) abdication, Mother Murphy's ascension to Mother Summer, Murphy's sister ascension to Titania, and the morphing of many members of the Murphy clan into the sidhe or other members of the NeverNever, etc.

[Arjan]

the Lady mantles search for suitable vessels and pass them through.

[raidem]

So your saying the Mother and Queen mantle would have to wait for the Lady to choose prior to the Mother and Queen being filled.  I could see that being the case. 

There is one precedent that could argue against that.  Namely, we have WOJ that the original Queens of both Courts established there base of power using the Stone Table.  So, they together were 'originated' at the same time therefore there was one occasion in which the Mother was never the Lady nor the Queen.  For all we know, the requirement of the Mother may require she to be a Mother or a Grandmother, and the Queen a Mother, and the Lady not either.  The last case we have is a strong argument based on Molly's short story where there is a prohibition for the Lady to procreate or attempt to procreate without either ascending, which in this case wouldn't be a problem, or unmaking the Lady mantle.

First off, I'm referring only to the mantles not the person in this paragraph.  I think the more likely case is that the Mother would seek out it's appropriate vessel.  The Queen seeks out it's vessel.  And, the Lady seeks out it's vessel.  All this occurs concurrently not consecutively with the Lady being the conduit to the greater ranks.

[Arjan]

But I think the restrictions could have been brought into place after the original maiden, mother, crone mantles had been split into their winter and summer halves.

[raidem]

Just a note, I often type then post then add to so as to ensure my comment is at least posted.  So, you may respond prior to my complete comment being viewed. 

I believe there were two original maidens, mothers, crones that shared power that was once unified.  I believe there was a WOJ that suggested Winter and Summer triads establishing their base of power rather than the three you suggest.  There was a suggestion too that the original Fates were divided into halves but I think that is a bit separate than the individuals participating in creation of base of power with stone table.

Oh, you said mantles not individuals.  I think if you go further back in time than what I was talking about above you come to the point you describe below:
 

But I think the restrictions could have been brought into place after the original maiden, mother, crone mantles had been split into their winter and summer halves.

I still don't think that the Queens would allow there to be that vulnerability to the succession.  During that time of the succession, there would be no Mother, Queen until a successive Lady process could work out.  You could save some time by short cutting that restriction and allowing some flexibility in the rules.  Another vulnerability would be that if the Outsiders could simply contain or compromise this Lady during that time somehow, they'd stalemate an entire court however briefly til she broke free.  I'm thinking she'd could be getting all three mantles at once maybe?

That actually brings us to the next question.  Can one of the Queens hold another Queen mantle?

[Arjan]

Just a note, I often type then post then add to so as to ensure my comment is at least posted.  So, you may respond prior to my complete comment being viewed. 

I believe there were two original maidens, mothers, crones that shared power that was once unified.  I believe there was a WOJ that suggested Winter and Summer triads establishing their base of power rather than the three you suggest.  There was a suggestion too that the original Fates were divided into halves but I think that is a bit separate than the individuals participating in creation of base of power with stone table.

Oh, you said mantles not individuals.  I think if you go further back in time than what I was talking about above you come to the point you describe below:
 
I still don't think that the Queens would allow there to be that vulnerability to the succession.  During that time of the succession, there would be no Mother, Queen until a successive Lady process could work out.  You could save some time by short cutting that restriction and allowing some flexibility in the rules.  Another vulnerability would be that if the Outsiders could simply contain or compromise this Lady during that time somehow, they'd stalemate an entire court however briefly til she broke free.  I'm thinking she'd could be getting all three mantles at once maybe?

That actually brings us to the next question.  Can one of the Queens hold another Queen mantle?

It might have been the original mother earth mantle split into the maiden mother crone mantle as known from older mythology which was again split into the six we know now.

All as reaction to different situations. I think the splitting up was done for the same reason the winter mantle was created to get more flexibility, weaker mantles have more freedom of action and stronger mantles have more power when really needed.

But everything works with rules and with stories, the mothers might have no real choice about how it works.

[Kindler]

I see it as if/then statements.
LET Role=Vessel + Mantle
IF Mother=0, THEN Mother=Queen + Mother Mantle - Queen Mantle
IF Queen=0, THEN Queen=Lady + Queen Mantle - Lady Mantle
IF Lady=0, THEN Nearest.Acceptable.Vessel + Lady Mantle = Lady

So I see this as the Lady Mantle seeking out the nearest acceptable vessel, then trading up twice, then seeking a fresh vessel and trading up once, then seeking a fresh vessel. I would argue that it would happen so quickly that it would appear to be simultaneous, and would functionally be such. The reason is that priority for the senior mantles falls to the line of succession; they promote from within, never without. The Ladies' mantles already default to nearest acceptable vessel, so there's no need to seek one from outside.

[Quantus]

I see it going one of three ways, in order of disruptive:

1) Bottom Up:  It is the task of the Lady's Mantle to seek out and Find new candidates, so the Lady Mantle would, in rapid succession, hop through the #1, #2, and #3 candidates until all three Mantle's were filled in order of the suitability of the available candidates.  The Greater Mantles, which by definition have more difficulty traversing the Mortal World, would wait in the NN until this process was complete.  Least Disruptive.

2) Top Down:  The Mothers are described as the Foundation and Bedrock of the Courts, so all other Functions might be on hold until that mantle is filled.  The result would be the same Top three most suitable candidates would get the three mantles, but all three would go out seeking in parallel. 

3) Total Destruction:  It remains possible that the Court structure would not survive the simultaneous death of all three Queens, that at least one is required to anchor the rest.  Though, in an emergency the Knight might serve this function, being a literal splinter of the Queens' Power. 

[Kindler]

I see it going one of three ways, in order of disruptive:

1) Bottom Up:  It is the task of the Lady's Mantle to seek out and Find new candidates, so the Lady Mantle would, in rapid succession, hop through the #1, #2, and #3 candidates until all three Mantle's were filled in order of the suitability of the available candidates.  The Greater Mantles, which by definition have more difficulty traversing the Mortal World, would wait in the NN until this process was complete.  Least Disruptive.

2) Top Down:  The Mothers are described as the Foundation and Bedrock of the Courts, so all other Functions might be on hold until that mantle is filled.  The result would be the same Top three most suitable candidates would get the three mantles, but all three would go out seeking in parallel. 

3) Total Destruction:  It remains possible that the Court structure would not survive the simultaneous death of all three Queens, that at least one is required to anchor the rest.  Though, in an emergency the Knight might serve this function, being a literal splinter of the Queens' Power.

Question: in scenario three, assuming the Court structure is simultaneously destroyed, is it possible that the Mantles would revert to the opposing Court's domain? Not to be filled, but for them to administer?

[Quantus]

Question: in scenario three, assuming the Court structure is simultaneously destroyed, is it possible that the Mantles would revert to the opposing Court's domain? Not to be filled, but for them to administer?

I dont think so, based on the idea that the two Courts are so intrinsically connected and Balanced against each other such that /Both/ would come crashing down together.  Id imagine it more likely the energy would Scatter, settle in the Table until somebody claimed, or revert to some other unified form the Mantles themselves have once known (ie a re-unified Hecate Mantle).

And that's separate from the more specific question of whether you could Kill only one Mother and not both, or actually Kill either at all...  The specific circumstances would be important, Id wager

[groinkick]

I think the Mantle can move a few different ways.

#1.  Mother Winter takes the Queen Mantle and gives it to whom she deems fit. (She threatened to eat Harry, and give his Mantle to someone else)
#2.  The Queen hands it down to whom she deems fit (usually to Lady most likely)
#3.  The Queen dies, and the Mantle seeks the nearest deserving person similar to what happened to Molly.

[Quantus]

I think the Mantle can move a few different ways.

#1.  Mother Winter takes the Queen Mantle and gives it to whom she deems fit. (She threatened to eat Harry, and give his Mantle to someone else)
#2.  The Queen hands it down to whom she deems fit (usually to Lady most likely)
#3.  The Queen dies, and the Mantle seeks the nearest deserving person similar to what happened to Molly.

I dont think #2 holds true anymore.  That is what was implied back in SK, but Meave's whole scheme in CD was based on the idea that Mab could NOT control who her mantle went to, even if Mab was the one who killed her.  Mabs' only apparent means to influence the Lady is to provide a preferable host in close proximity. 

[Cozarkian]

I think the Lady mantle grabs the nearest vessel, then the Queen and Mother mantles follow along. I don't think it happens instantly, though, and there is likely a potentially apocalyptic delay before a new Mother Summer is established.

For my rationale:

(click to show/hide)

The role of Queens as Maiden/Mother/Crone is a biological imperative. The lady can't be a mother and the mother must be. The crone has started menopause.

When the Lady gets the Mother mantle, it takes control during her fertile time and drives her to have sex. Upon conception, the Lady mantle leaves to find a new vessel. The new Mother would have a 9 month reign as Queen. At the birth of her child, the crone mantle would force her into menopause, causing the Queen mantle to jump ship into. The new lady, who would then proceed in her own quest to have children, freeing the Lady mantle to find another new vessel.

The above would make it impossible for the entire Murphy clan to become the Queens, as Mother Murphy is already ineligible to become Lady.

[groinkick]

I dont think #2 holds true anymore.  That is what was implied back in SK, but Meave's whole scheme in CD was based on the idea that Mab could NOT control who her mantle went to, even if Mab was the one who killed her.  Mabs' only apparent means to influence the Lady is to provide a preferable host in close proximity.

My ideas were on what Mab could do with her own Mantle which is why I added it's usually given to the Winter Lady.

[raidem]

The above would make it impossible for the entire Murphy clan to become the Queens, as Mother Murphy is already ineligible to become Lady.

See, I disagree here.  I think the Mother 'should' be at least a real life mother.  I think that is one of the bedrock principles for the Mother Mantles.  If a Lady happens to find herself in the Mother position without being a mother, I think we are in a world of hurt. 

So, I favor the following:

2) Top Down:  The Mothers are described as the Foundation and Bedrock of the Courts, so all other Functions might be on hold until that mantle is filled.  The result would be the same Top three most suitable candidates would get the three mantles, but all three would go out seeking in parallel.