Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

That is usually true but in fiction there is something called evil that is beyond selfishness. It is the idea of absolute evil, personified evil. Of evil for evils sake. Maybe it is even self sacrificing like serving some evil god or it is just a property like an evil weapon.

I don't find that particularly appealing in fiction, though it can be a useful tool for some kinds of RPGs, just because of the general lack of realism and because it can be pernicious in leading people to think that way in real life.  I have known a handful of people in RL who set out to be evil for evil's sake, and I could have done without them.

[exartiem]

Jim has said very little about Drakul in the DU, so it really isn't possible to say whether he is evil or not.  I was going with the more classical version of him.

IIRC, it has been revealed that our existence is painful or somehow damaging to the Outsiders, so they are doing what they consider the right thing to do.

To me, evil does not need to gain sustenance or protection from its victims.  It does not need to defend or support itself or another.  It is not controlled or compelled into these acts.  It causes pain for pure enjoyment.  So, for me, the only one that fits this list is Shagnasty.

[Snark Knight]

I'd say that the most evil is someone who inflicts pain, and suffering purely for the enjoyment of watching someone else suffer, and has the free will to not do those things.  So Shagnasty is probably the most evil that I can think of in the story (beside Outsiders who appear to have no free will in they are 100% pure evil, and cannot be altered).  Free will is the snag for me.  Can it resist those impulses or is he like a rabid animal that is out of control?

I'm not really sure where the skinwalkers fall on the free will question. They disobeyed the beings they were supposed to be messengers for in choosing to stay on earth, but after that they seem to have pretty much lost the capacity for being anything but sadistic monsters. There haven't been any examples like in the White Court where Thomas chooses to fight his nature and Lara actively embraces evil because it's expedient and 'who has the time for being good?'. And it seems like Goodman Grey has to take active measures ('paying the Rent') to retain control of his actions rather than be swamped by his father's nature.

[Arjan]

I don't find that particularly appealing in fiction, though it can be a useful tool for some kinds of RPGs, just because of the general lack of realism and because it can be pernicious in leading people to think that way in real life.  I have known a handful of people in RL who set out to be evil for evil's sake, and I could have done without them.

To cause evil upon others without a selfish motive is a form of self destructive insanity, you gain nothing but enemies so it is either compulsive or stupid. But usually there is some other motive though that does not have to be rational.

But the dresdenverse is fiction based on myth and absolute evil is a religious invention now used in myth. It started with Zoroastrian dualism and went on via Judaism and Gnosticism into Cristianity. Some myth is full of it so I do think it exists in some form in the dresdenverse. I do not think it plays an important role i the story though. Black and white do exist but Harry lives in a world of greys.

[wardenferry419]

All adult mortals live in the grey. It is a balancing act between doing what you want to do, what you need to do, and what you should be doing.

[Arjan]

All adult mortals live in the grey. It is a balancing act between doing what you want to do, what you need to do, and what you should be doing.

It is from Shiro's letter in death masks:

Your path is often a dark one. You do not always have the luxury that we do as Knights of the Cross. We struggle against powers of darkness. We live in black and white, while you must face a world of greys. It is never easy to know the path in such a place. Trust your heart. You are a decent man. God lives in such hearts.

Substitute evil for black and good for white and you have it. Absolute good and evil do exist in the dresdenverse but mostly we live in a world of greys.

[wardenferry419]

Agreed.

[Arjan]

Agreed.

And absolute evil is not selfish. It does not need to be tempted into evil by wealth, sex or power over others. It puts considerable energy in being evil.

It is really madness if you think about it but some people need that madness to explain the evil in the world and other people want to personify concepts into gods.

[wardenferry419]

Good thing that the Dresdenverse does have active gods and devils running around. Someone to pass the blame on for the rampant evil that exists. Unfortunately, in our world, we have to chalk it up to people being A$$holes. Way less fun.

[Arjan]

Good thing that the Dresdenverse does have active gods and devils running around. Someone to pass the blame on for the rampant evil that exists. Unfortunately, in our world, we have to chalk it up to people being A$$holes. Way less fun.

Oh you can not explain all evil that way. It is called the problem of evil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

[wardenferry419]

I skimmed it. Not saying humanity covers all evil. But, they hold the majority.

[Arjan]

I skimmed it. Not saying humanity covers all evil. But, they hold the majority.

I don't know about the majority but feeling guilty about it all sure.

[groinkick]

Jim Butcher...  Tortures another for the purpose of punishing those who love the person being tortured.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Oh you can not explain all evil that way. It is called the problem of evil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

Evil's only a problem that way if you assume the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent God.  We have no confirmation that the White God in the DV fits these criteria.

[groinkick]

Oh you can not explain all evil that way. It is called the problem of evil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

In the Dresdenverse you absolutely can, as the Angels have shown.  It's about Choice.  If you could do no wrong, if you could not say "no" to good, then you are not a free being, you're a robot, a slave.  The only way for you to have free will is to be able to say "no" to good.  It is freedom vs peace.  Within the Dresdenverse the Angels job is to ensure freedom to choose from those who would deny that Choice.  In a place where freedom exists, evil will happen.