Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith

[Arjan]

The reason we have to disbelieve her is that she spends two-thirds of SK misleading Harry, to point him at the Mothers so he will retrieve the Unravelling.  And that so far the results of her actions have left her with the Paranet trusting her and working with her.

She was in a very difficult place there and had a clear motive for what she was doing. Her working for Summer was no secret either. She did what was expected and helped Harry where it counted.

Harry had to get the unraveling anyway otherwise the mothers had not given it to him and the later misdirection was double layered, Harry was just dimm witted as usual.

After that she was not under the same pressure and in white night they had both grown a little. Harry in Summer Knight is still very immature with unrealistic expectations from people following with resentment. His story did not consider the difficulty of Elaines position which is ironic considering Harry’s later relation with Mab.

She simply had no motives for misdirection anymore.

Why on earth not ?

She was close to Harry, they had a relation and they had soulgazed. Justin could never know exactly how close so he could not predict how she would really react when he started his magic on Harry. That would make her a risk and risks are to be avoided if possible. It was possible to avoid that risk.

Either by arranging it that she was not there, as he did when he enthralled Elaine, or by enthralling Elaine first.

Harry could point to the day it happened with Elaine which was extra evidence.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

She simply had no motives for misdirection anymore. She was close to Harry, they had a relation and they had soulgazed. Justin could never know exactly how close so he could not predict how she would really react when he started his magic on Harry.

Ah, OK, I see the difference in where we are coming from now.  I think.

Am I right in reading that you are coming from a position of them having a relationship as an independent thing, rather than a thing Justin was encouraging (if only by pretending not to see some of it) as one more method of urging them in the intended direction?

[Arjan]

Ah, OK, I see the difference in where we are coming from now.  I think.

Am I right in reading that you are coming from a position of them having a relationship as an independent thing, rather than a thing Justin was encouraging (if only by pretending not to see some of it) as one more method of urging them in the intended direction?

Is does not matter that Justin was encouraging it the fact was that it was there. The feeling was mutual as was indicated by the soulgaze. Justin encouraged it and it was part of his plan but he had no way to know how strong the bond between Harry and Elaine was whatever Elaine or Harry told him. So he had no way to make certain how Elaine would react unless he enthralled her.

And it was easy for him to arrange the whole thing without Elaine being there. Elaines illness when he enthralled her was probably caused by Justin as well to keep her home when Harry was at school.

[Bacchus]

I've always thought Elaine was super shifty/evil  because pure power wise shes just under Dresden and control wise shes stronger than him. That makes her one of the most powerful wizards of Dresden generation and over the last 20 (30?) years we are suppost to believe shes done nothing but hide except for the 2 books were she worked against harry and a bit of paranet and detective stuff,  Shes way to powerful to not have done much more than that.

also  butcher put way to much back story into her to leave her as she is now.

she obviously didn't really care for Dresden since she actively hid from him and let him believe he killed her. Thats a really really F*$#ed up thing to do and she only revealed she wasn't dead when she had absolutely no choice in the matter. There would have been zero danger to her to tell him as soon as Dresden left Ebenezer farm. she knew dresden well enough to know he would die before betraying her.
 I cant imagine any halfway decent person doing that and keeping it up for like 12 years.
In the books shes been in since it seems her first instinct is to manipulate Dresden into getting what she wants when she could have just asked him

[wardenferry419]

Preaching to the choir about Elaine.

[Arjan]

Preaching to the choir about Elaine.

A total failure in trying to look at the story from her point of view which is necessary to explain her actions.

[wardenferry419]

For the moment. Elaine's story exists in the grey with a big ole question mark. I feel strongly that she is Kumori.  But, I have a suspicious nature and only at the conclusion of her life or the series will that question mark be removed.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

A total failure in trying to look at the story from her point of view which is necessary to explain her actions.

Why would we want to do that ?

If anything, I think the biggest problem I have with debating what's really going on in the DV is people being too attached to looking at things from specific points of view, particularly Harry's.

[Arjan]

Why would we want to do that ?

If anything, I think the biggest problem I have with debating what's really going on in the DV is people being too attached to looking at things from specific points of view, particularly Harry's.

It is called empathy and it is a valuable tool to get an understanding of someones motives. It is easy to feel empathy with the narrator so people believe him even if he is an unreliable narrator or in this case a yong somewhat egocentric adolescent. But if you want a better understanding of the motives of the other characters in the book you have to place yourself in their shoes.

[jonas]

It is called empathy and it is a valuable tool to get an understanding of someones motives. It is easy to feel empathy with the narrator so people believe him even if he is an unreliable narrator or in this case a yong somewhat egocentric adolescent. But if you want a better understanding of the motives of the other characters in the book you have to place yourself in their shoes.

Aye. Or at least be able to take off the initial blinders, take one step to the side of the situation. Whether it be your own view point or the one your reading..

[Arjan]

Aye. Or at least be able to take off the initial blinders, take one step to the side of the situation. Whether it be your own view point or the one your reading..

It would be interesting to read a scene from the books not from Harry's perspective but from somebody else involved in that scene. That could be revealing.

[Bacchus]

whats her side to compensate for what shes done?

 as far as we know shes never broken any laws of magic (i vaguely recall some mistfiend thing but that was against Dresden and he didn't tell anyone)

 so the council have no reason to kill her, she just hid while justin tried to kill dresden (probably) she had no real need to hide at all and as i said she is extremely powerful, shes not some battered wife with nowhere to turn.
she would have come across as a total victim and one with amazing potential. only a few of the most rabid anti warlock guys would have wanted her dead..... unless she had other reasons to want to hide

[Arjan]

whats her side to compensate for what shes done?

 as far as we know shes never broken any laws of magic (i vaguely recall some mistfiend thing but that was against Dresden and he didn't tell anyone)

 so the council have no reason to kill her, she just hid while justin tried to kill dresden (probably) she had no real need to hide at all and as i said she is extremely powerful, shes not some battered wife with nowhere to turn.
she would have come across as a total victim and one with amazing potential. only a few of the most rabid anti warlock guys would have wanted her dead..... unless she had other reasons to want to hide

When she hid from justin both Harry and Elaine were very young and Justin was a powerful wizard. Harry was just 16.  Harry only got the courage to confront Justin after he made a deal with Lea but he did that because he thought he had no other option. Justin would follow him to the end of the earth.  Elaine was not extremely powerful at that moment and there was no way she would even think she was able to handle Justin.

Adding to that she was enthralled which can influence a lot of things. There was a lot of fire and magic during the battle so she probably ran while everything was burning. She was 16 and homeless. She was not that strong in her magic yet and she did not know who was alive or not. If Justin's dead boke the enthrallment or not her mind was still messed up because of it.

And then came some Sidhe Lady with a deal. Harry could not make a good deal with Lea so I don't expect Elaine to make a good deal either.

These are not static characters and at that moment they were just children really.

“All the wishing in the world will not change the past, my godson,” Lea said. “You would like to believe that perhaps Justin had hidden good intentions of some sort. That what happened between you was some kind of misunderstanding. But you understood him perfectly.”
    “Yeah. Probably. I’d forgotten how much it hurt—that’s all,” I said quietly. “I’d forgotten how much I loved him. How much I wanted him to be proud of me.”
    “Children are vulnerable,” Lea said. “They are easily deceived and notoriously subject to such delusions. You are no longer a child.”

[wardenferry419]

It would be interesting to read a scene from the books not from Harry's perspective but from somebody else involved in that scene. That could be revealing.

Aren't we getting that with zoo story in Brief cases?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Adding to that she was enthralled which can influence a lot of things.

We still don't know this.

And then came some Sidhe Lady with a deal. Harry could not make a good deal with Lea so I don't expect Elaine to make a good deal either.

Considering Lea's obligation to protect Harry by the terms of her deal with Maggie, as revealed in SK, I do wonder whether Harry effectively sold himself to Faerie for nothing (or rather, for something he already had, if he had known and demanded it).