Author Topic: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith  (Read 19199 times)

Offline jonas

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2017, 09:02:21 PM »
Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds. How do you know Justin wasn't enthralling Elaine so she could learn to fight it with her full knowledge and consent? Or maybe Elaine had been nemfected and Justin enthralled her so he could cure her?

And doesn't it seem odd that Harry was able to defeat an accomplished warden while an enthralled apprentice was able to escape? I think Justin died because he used his last moments to save Elaine's life by opening a way to the NN and pushing her through. That is how Elaine ended up with the Summer Court and why Harry could never find her.
Man... me being me, I just got some thematic insight from your post. Harry who does everything of his own volition but under subversive means by others is in direct opposite to Elaine(as theoretical Kumori) who is directed to do what she does but uses it to manipulate everyone else. Mmmm... starts me thinking that Dresden is balanced by basically everything in the end lol.
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Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2017, 02:24:17 PM »
That seems enough for me to dispell all notions of a good justin.

Well, Lea can't lie and she should be in a position to have known Justin since he was an associate of Maggie and since she was probably watching over Harry at various points in his life. There remains a possibility that she could be wrong, but assuming JB wasn't just being deceptive to cast doubt on something he wants to reveal later, it does seem likely that Justin was evil. Justin is too important to be actually evil and just a dead enemy, though, so I'm guessing that makes him Cowl.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2017, 05:09:24 PM »
I think Justin might have been Elaine's father.

I've considered it, and it's a little too juicy to dismiss. I think it'd be cool.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2017, 08:41:11 PM »
I don't think he was good exactly, but I think, in his mind, he thought he was doing something necessary. It doesn't make what he did okay, but we don't know why he did what he did. If it was power for power's sake, sure, that's pretty much my definition of evil. His motivation is important, and it hasn't been conclusively stated. Lea's statement is based on her knowledge and interpretation; she's likely right, but I still want to know why Justin was cultivating starborns specifically.

My take on it, fwiw.

Harry being starborn seems to largely involve, from what we know so far, power over Outsiders.  The humans we have seen in the series display some knowledge and power connected to Outsiders are Cowl (summoning the Outsider-feeling pterodactyl/comet thing in the caverns at the end of WN), Justin (summoning the Walker to send after Harry), Lord Raith (running the Walker summoning, and whose protection from magic in BR Harry compares to feeling Outsidery iirc), and Maggie (whom Eb confirms in BR was a companion of both the previous two, and which is also supported by Harry being born in a "complex set of circumstances" to give him starborn power; that seems more than an accident of birth alone, and Maggie is the obvious person to set it up; Elaine's age being six months different from Harry's rules out it just being the date or else the DV would have hundreds of thousands of starborn).

So if we work on the basis that the latter three were allied to bring a starborn into being, and later parted ways over other disagreements, everything we see of Justin fits together.  He finds Harry in the orphanage system, where Harry is by all accounts pretty miserable.  He sweeps in to offer Harry the sort of sales pitch that is bound to be wonderful with a miserable small boy who so far as we know is already into SF and Fantasy (am I right in Harry mentioning having seen Star Wars when it first came out, which puts that a couple of years before Justin?).  "Come live with me and I will be your father-figure and incidentally, you're really a special wizard and I will train you," almost immediately after Harry has his first experience of magic (in that long-jump competition) so Harry knows something odd is going on with him, but not what.

Then when we see the training bit with Justin, it's harsh, it comes with punishments and rewards, and it's pushing an agenda of "working hard at this makes you better than other people and you don't want to be a person of less worth."

And we know where that ends up, from Harry's flashback in I think it is SK, of human sacrifice, chalices of blood, and naked Elaine.

Following which we have Harry convincing himself Elaine was enthralled, going in to rescue her, and Justin trying to enthrall him.  Note that Harry mentions in the confirmed-true memory in GS that Elaine only sat like that when she had a specific sarcastic point to make, so we have direct confirmation that there are other explanations than her being enthralled at that point.  And note also that Elaine spends more than half of SK successfully part of a conspiracy to lead Harry around by the nose and direct his attention so that he ends up going to the Mothers and grabbing the Unravelling, so she has the skills to get him to believe things that are not true.

I reckon what's going on there is that Justin, whether as part of a larger conspiracy or not (I believe so myself but it makes no difference to this line of reasoning) is trying to raise starborn who will work along with his nefarious scheme, whatever that may be.  I believe Elaine is in line with that scheme and Harry isn't, and there may be some collusion in there of "I am going to try and enthrall the guy but in case it doesn't work make sure he thinks you're innocent, he's in love with you so that should be easy" going on in that GS memory. 

Then when Harry resists the enthrallment, the question of how much effort it is worth to try bringing him back on board needs answering.  Sending the Walker after him is total overkill if he is just a half-trained apprentice, but also is pretty guaranteed to dispose of him.  On the other hand, if he is not a loose end but actually is a starborn, that will show up fighting a Walker in ways it would not fighting a common-or-garden demon.  Win-win, unless your Walker does his bit to spin Harry on going back and finishing Justin off.  At which point Elaine fakes her disappearance in ways that convinces Harry she is dead for the next ten years; it seems very unlikely to me that he never once tried to use magic to find her in that span, so that has to be deliberate on her part.

And the end result of that is the Harry we see in the first few books.  Extremely paranoid about authority figures, convinced that keeping information to himself is the best way of keeping people safe, placing his own judgement above anyone else's regardless of whether they might be better informed or not, and with temptation after temptation to cause mayhem thrown in his way (the Three-Eye potion, the shapeshifter belts, and ultimately, getting the White Council into a war.) 

The direct, and fairly predictable if you know the people involved, consequences of Harry killing Justin help build his character too.  The Council find him, they put him on trial, the Merlin wants him dead because that is what you do with warlocks unless you want to risk another Kemmler or worse (I am not sure what "worse" is but I see no reason to think the Merlin is lying when he says in PG Harry has no idea how bad warlocks can get, knowing full well Harry was up to his eyes in Kemmlerites in the previous book), and Eb intervenes to save him because he feels he has a second chance after messing up with Maggie, and succeeds because as Blackstaff he has stated-in-so-many-words licence to ignore the will of the Council.  And if any of that does not seem a particularly reliable deal there is always Peabody in there to fine-tune how things go.  Which leaves Harry as we see him in SF spending a lot less time than any other wizard his age around the Council, thinking they are a hidebound bunch of big meanies who want his head on personal grounds, and not growing up enough to really get a handle on Morgan's reasons for being so anti-warlocks until their confrontation in DB.  I think the whole arc of the books, and why the continuing narrative starts in SF rather than with Harry as Justin's apprentice, is that we are seeing the slow painful uneven process of him growing to have more tolerance and understanding of people who are not like him, from a start point of having been deliberately pushed a long way towards sociopathy, arrogance, and elitism.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2017, 10:56:10 PM »
I agree that situation and choice made Harry one of the more reclusive members of the Council with obvious vindication from TC. As far as Elaine being a willing accomplice to Justin or a victim; I am uncertain.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2017, 03:12:42 PM »
I agree that situation and choice made Harry one of the more reclusive members of the Council with obvious vindication from TC. As far as Elaine being a willing accomplice to Justin or a victim; I am uncertain.

In my opinion, whether she was fully enthralled or not isn't really relevant. Even if you remove that from the equation, I don't think that she could have been willing to go along with Justin, at least not fairly. She was abused and manipulated, threatened to be tossed back into the system that had made her miserable, and promised rewards, safety, companionship, and acceptance to go with Justin, all at the tender age of sixteen. Fear combined with a sense of obligation will change your perceived choices. In short, I don't think Elaine can ever be fairly described as a willing accomplice, regardless of magical influence, simply because her circumstances conspired specifically to eliminate or influence her will.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2017, 08:24:38 PM »
She was abused and manipulated, threatened to be tossed back into the system that had made her miserable, and promised rewards, safety, companionship, and acceptance to go with Justin, all at the tender age of sixteen.

I don't recall any definite evidence that she was threatened or manipulated in that way; Harry tends to assume she was treated the same way he was but that isn't actually evidence.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2017, 08:56:20 PM »
I don't recall any definite evidence that she was threatened or manipulated in that way; Harry tends to assume she was treated the same way he was but that isn't actually evidence.
There is enough evidence that she was enthralled anyway so that is enough for me.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2017, 09:12:01 PM »
There is enough evidence that she was enthralled anyway so that is enough for me.
I'm of the opinion she's the reason for the insert about 'fine thralldom' in BR. She's been a victim of it for years and doesn't even know perhaps.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2017, 09:30:57 PM »
Kumori is enthralled Elaine persona?
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2017, 02:24:36 AM »
There is enough evidence that she was enthralled anyway so that is enough for me.

What evidence ?

Harry's memory in GS explicitly textually calls out a potential in-character other reason for her to have been behaving the way she was there without enthralling being involved.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2017, 04:03:37 AM »
What evidence ?

Harry's memory in GS explicitly textually calls out a potential in-character other reason for her to have been behaving the way she was there without enthralling being involved.
As theoretical possibility, not as most likely explanation. If one goes for what is remotely possible we are sure of nothing.

There are loads of circumstancial evidence supporting it to begin with the fact that Justin tried to do it with Harry who was also already loyal to Justin but apparently loyalty was not enough. We have no reason to disbelieve Elaines claim especially since she describes the mental after effects of entrallment much like Lucio did later.

Lea told Harry he had understood Justin perfectly. Harry and Elaine had soulgazed and they still had a spiritual connection in white night. Justin was a warlock who at that time probably thought breaking the law was a solution for everything.

There were really no reasons for Justin not to enthrall Elaine except for those reasons not to enthrall Harry. He had motive and opportunity and if Elaine was not enthralled he would have waited untill he could have handled Harry alone as he did with Elaine because he could never have been certain about her loyalty in those circumstances whatever she said, it would just have been an extra complication to avoid.

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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2017, 09:44:28 AM »
Elaine often acts as if she is carrrying some emotional scarring and is nearly Harry's equal to resisting authority and control. It is hard to get a read on her. Sometimes, she seems to act like a rabbit trying to figure out which way to hop away and sometimes she has a cat chasing a mouse mood.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2017, 02:11:35 PM »
Elaine often acts as if she is carrrying some emotional scarring and is nearly Harry's equal to resisting authority and control. It is hard to get a read on her. Sometimes, she seems to act like a rabbit trying to figure out which way to hop away and sometimes she has a cat chasing a mouse mood.

My interpretation of Elaine is that she had been used and abused by everyone around her—the orphanage system, Justin, and then Summer—for so long that she's pretty messed up by the time we see her in Summer Knight. Harry lucked out and managed to get to Ebenezer, someone who (though we find out later that he was a bit hypocritical about black magic) cared enough about him to let him make his own choices. I don't think Elaine was ever able to do anything strictly on her own until the end of Summer Knight (not counting her early adolescence, because we don't know anything about her until she's with Justin).

For me, her biggest tell is that the second she gets some real freedom, she models her life after Harry's, the closest thing she has to someone she trusts. Even though she apparently has a choice, she chooses the path someone else did.

Obviously, this goes out the window if you find out that she had hitched herself to Cowl's wagon, so to speak, and only opened up shop on the West Coast after fleeing the Darkhallow at the end of Dead Beat. Do we have a timeline for when she started advertising? (Also, how did she get her PI license? Is she licensed at all? It's a nightmare to get it here in New York—you basically need to be law enforcement first, like Vince Graver. Dresden himself apprenticed with Nick before he got his, so I'd imagine that it'd take at least a year of full time apprenticeship, which would kind of (unfortunately) fit the timeline of Dead Beat, plus one year for apprenticeship, plus one year until White Night, when Ramirez comments that he'd found her and tested her).

Anyway, I know a lot of people find Elaine to be shifty, but I don't, at least not specifically. I see her as someone who's had a really sad life and is trying to do the best she can moving forward.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2017, 12:55:20 AM »
We have no reason to disbelieve Elaines claim especially since she describes the mental after effects of entrallment much like Lucio did later.

The reason we have to disbelieve her is that she spends two-thirds of SK misleading Harry, to point him at the Mothers so he will retrieve the Unravelling.  And that so far the results of her actions have left her with the Paranet trusting her and working with her.

Quote
He had motive and opportunity and if Elaine was not enthralled he would have waited untill he could have handled Harry alone as he did with Elaine because he could never have been certain about her loyalty in those circumstances whatever she said,

Why on earth not ?
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