A weapon to kill an Archangel?

[groinkick]

I started a thread about Nicodemus wanting to become God.  Perhaps he has another plan?

"In the English epic poem Paradise Lost by John Milton, Michael commands the army of angels loyal to God against the rebel forces of Satan. Armed with a sword from God's armory, he bests Satan in personal combat, wounding his side."

could this possibly be the blade from Skin Game?  If so does Nicodemus want it for himself or for someone else?  Thoughts?

[wardenferry419]

All five items, collected from Hades' vault, would have had the blood of Christ on them. Each of the nails in the swords would have the blood of Christ, too.Are there any other such items in the Bible?

[ticonderouga]

The scourge that Jesus was flogged with.

[Bacchus]

the blade from skin game is able to be hidden in the forearm of his duster and doesn't stop him from bending his elbow so it cant be long enough to be even a short sword. large spearhead length max.

also the spearhead that pierced jesuses side seems more  fitting in that it was a mortal item to begin with that will now help mortals at a time of need.  rather than something made by god before humans ever existed getting released to mortals


also i would assume the cross itself would have gotten lots of jesus's blood on it and a chunk of it may pop up because from what i know during the middle ages pieces of the true cross were one of the main holy relics and tons of cathedrals claimed to have pieces of it.

[groinkick]

All five items, collected from Hades' vault, would have had the blood of Christ on them. Each of the nails in the swords would have the blood of Christ, too.Are there any other such items in the Bible?

I don't know if all 5 weapons did have the blood of Christ on them.  Some of them may be from Old Testament time fraom, and if the blade was Michael's sword used to defeat lucifer then it wouldn't have the blood on it either.

[wardenferry419]

Hmmm, it was just a thought about the bloodied weapons.

[exartiem]

All 5 items, and the three nails (although, historically it should be four) were in contact with Jesus near the time of his death. 

The battle would have taken place before Jesus'  time on earth.  How would the soldier have gotten it?

[Kindler]

I started a thread about Nicodemus wanting to become God.  Perhaps he has another plan?

"In the English epic poem Paradise Lost by John Milton, Michael commands the army of angels loyal to God against the rebel forces of Satan. Armed with a sword from God's armory, he bests Satan in personal combat, wounding his side."

could this possibly be the blade from Skin Game?  If so does Nicodemus want it for himself or for someone else?  Thoughts?

*as background, I wrote my English Lit Bachelor's thesis on Milton*

Satan gets the snot beaten out of him by everyone. The best one is Abdiel, who was implied in the text to be lowest in the hierarchy of the Host. Abdiel "smites" Satan and a bunch of his Fallen buddies without breaking a sweat. It's like a spy getting his rear end handed to him by an accountant (one who isn't Ben Affleck). No matter what revisionists like to say about Satan in Paradise Lost now, he was a total chump in the poem as written. It's not even remotely a close fight.

Now, Michael does have a sword that is specifically designed to damage angels. In the poem, Satan and his army use gunpowder weapons, "infernal machines," while the Host is described basically like Hoplites, fighting in phalanxes. None of the angels can actually kill each other, until Michael has enough in the penultimate fight and slaps him down with his special sword. Satan is wounded badly and cast into Tartarus. He then claims victory to his Fallen friends in a hilarious speech that has no inkling of self-awareness.

the blade from skin game is able to be hidden in the forearm of his duster and doesn't stop him from bending his elbow so it cant be long enough to be even a short sword. large spearhead length max.

also the spearhead that pierced jesuses side seems more  fitting in that it was a mortal item to begin with that will now help mortals at a time of need.  rather than something made by god before humans ever existed getting released to mortals


also i would assume the cross itself would have gotten lots of jesus's blood on it and a chunk of it may pop up because from what i know during the middle ages pieces of the true cross were one of the main holy relics and tons of cathedrals claimed to have pieces of it.

(I wrote my History thesis on the Crusades (technically, the time between the Second and Third Crusades, about Saladin's rise), so this thread happens to be right in my wheelhouse :-D)

Tons of cathedrals claimed to have pieces of the True Cross, but even contemporary Christian scholars doubted their authenticity. The Cross itself was evidently kept in the Church of the Sepulchre in Jerusalem. Right at the climax of the First Crusade, it was captured a bunch of times and changed hands when the Church was destroyed. Crusaders recovered a shard and had it embedded in a golden cross, which they put at the front of their formations when they marched.

It was lost during the Battle of Hattin (circa 1187), which pretty much marked the end of the Second Crusade. Guess who it was lost to?

Saladin! You know, Sanya's ancestor. Totally definitely absolutely not significant in any way, considering that he was a Knight of the Cross.

This version of the True Cross completely disappears from all historical records at that point. Richard the Lionheart tried to ransom the cross back from Saladin, but he wasn't having any of it. Apocryphal claims of recovered shards sprang up all over the place, mostly in and around Constantinople (which makes sense, considering that pretty much every Crusade was kicked off by capturing Constantinople). 

My thinking is that they only recovered a piece of the True Cross in 1099 because the rest of it went to Hades.

Look up hastae for Early Imperial Roman spears to get a good look at them. At the time of the Crucifixion—after the Republican Roman period—most of the legionnaires didn't carry hastae. They used pila, which are totally different (and designed to bend on impact; they were pretty much designed to be caught on shields when thrown, then bend and lodge in place, making the shield heavy and worthless). Only triarii carried hastae after the Imperial reforms. Triarii were veterans, usually ten years if memory serves. I don't know how likely it is that a ten-year military veteran was given guard duty at Calvary, but it sounds like the kind of cushy gig they'd get.

Anyway, a hastae spearhead is a good description for the blade in the Hades vault; a knife with a leaf-shaped blade and a wooden handle. If the spearhead were removed and the shaft was cut down and shaped, it'd be about a foot long, assuming the blade wasn't reworked. Hastae had an ash spearhandle, if anyone's interested, which would've lasted beautifully for two thousand years. In short, I'm pretty sure the blade is the Lance of Longinus.

Interesting fact, by the way: Longinus isn't named in the Bible. It's from an apocryphal account—the GOSPEL OF NICODEMUS. Again, totally not a relevant fact and it's just coincidental, nothing to see here.

[Rasins]

Thanks Kindler.  All very interesting.  I love history and I'm happy when someone reminds me of it.

On the other hand, Paradise Lost is Just a story (poem), and not biblical, though many treat it as such.

[Kindler]

Thanks Kindler.  All very interesting.  I love history and I'm happy when someone reminds me of it.

On the other hand, Paradise Lost is Just a story (poem), and not biblical, though many treat it as such.

Oh yeah, a lot of modern concepts of Heaven, Hell, and the mortal plane are built on Paradise Lost (and Paradise Regained) and the Divine Comedy, which are artistic renditions of biblical events, and not necessarily faithful adaptations of them as written. It's an important distinction.

Though in the Dresden Files, Milton himself really, really does fit a whole lot of stereotypes for prophets and such. He was a major dissident during the English Civil War—to the point that while a general pardon was issued during the Restoration, Milton specifically was not—and went freakin' blind. Most of his major writing was through dictation. Anyway, it's all kind of just interesting side stuff, but I could totally see Dresdenverse Milton being a TWG version of Lovecraft, if that makes sense to anyone else.

[Rasins]

LOL ... John (Lovecraft) Milton.

[Talby16]

Thanks for the info Kindler. I love reading nuggets of history like this and seeing how it weaves in and out of the Dresdenverse.

[Just Al]

All 5 items, and the three nails (although, historically it should be four) were in contact with Jesus near the time of his death. 

4 nails would make sense, one for each of the swords and one for the "Spear of Destiny" which also contains one of the nails from the cross bound to it.

[Rasins]

4 nails would make sense, one for each of the swords and one for the "Spear of Destiny" which also contains one of the nails from the cross bound to it.

I think the main reason those items have power is because of the connections to the blood of TWC.  That being the case, then there is no reason for the Spear to have a Nail bound to it.

[Kindler]

4 nails would make sense, one for each of the swords and one for the "Spear of Destiny" which also contains one of the nails from the cross bound to it.

The number of nails is actually hotly debated.

As a semi-related sidenote, the Cross Jesus carried to Calvary was pretty much as Harry describes it in Hades: a wooden placard. Archaeological evidence suggests that the upright sections were permanently in place, and those sentenced to crucifixion carried their crossbeams, not the whole thing. It'd still weigh about a hundred pounds according to some, so I have absolutely no idea how it was smuggled out with nobody noticing.

As for objects that would have the Blood of Christ, there are indeed the Nails (three or four, as mentioned; Harry says three as though that's all there are, but there could be a fourth because he's not exactly an expert), the Shroud, the Crown of Thorns, the True Cross, and the Lance of Longinus.

As mentioned, the scourge used during his public flogging may count as well, but I have doubts. The others had the Blood of Christ and nobody else's on them, and the scourge used on Jesus was very, very likely used on others. I have no idea if that matters in the Dresden Universe.

Some depictions of the Grail say that Jesus's blood was caught in it during the Crucifixion, too, while others say it was simply the one he used at the Last Supper.

Others may include:

The hammer used to drive the nails likely had blood on them afterward.
He bled openly on the ground at Calvary. There's a big pile of rocks in a church in Jerusalem, I believe, that is considered by many to be the Crucifixion site.
Whatever he was wearing during his flogging and the Crucifixion were definitely soaked in blood.

There's also a bunch of objects of unknown provenance in the real world:

The Basilica of Blood, a little vial which apparently contains a piece of cloth with His blood on it.
The Scala Sancta, the stairs Jesus ascended for his trail, which may or may not have been bled upon. They were brought back by Saint Helena to Constantinople, along with the Nails currently believed by many to have been from the Crucifixion.
I think there's also the post Jesus was tied to during the flagellation that's in Rome somewhere.

That's all I can remember at the moment. There's a bunch of stuff purportedly belonging to Jesus hanging around, but, like the Pardoner of the Canterbury Tales says, most of them are likely fakes.