Nicodemus wants to be God

[Arjan]

She probably genuinely believed in what she did and that gave her a inner peace of mind. She killed people and she knew she was doing the right thing. She sacrificed herself in the same spirit. It made her smile.

The problem is people believe all kind of dung especially if it is spoon fed from birth. Nicodemus kept feeding her with the assistence of fallen angels.

In the end she was a victim of the fallen just like the other denarians. That is why the knights try to save them. But she was a victim who was making victims so something had to be done.

Free will is a problematic concept. Assigning free will to someone basically says you hold him responsible for his actions. In that sense children have no free will, their parents are responsible.

But nobody is completely responsible for his actions, he is made by his genetic makeup, his upbringing, his whole environment and every accident in life that can happen.

At a certain point we hold someone responsible and sometimes we don’t. But even if we don’t the problem does not go away and if she is not responsible for the problem she is (part of) the problem.

[wardenferry419]

I'm sorry; but, that sounds like deferrring accountability. Everybody is born with limitations on what they can and can't do. How we overcome those hindrances and what we learn and achieve are what define a person. Deidre had evil parents. She had an evil being co-existing inside her body. So, her limitations were greater than any normal person experiences. But, she could have overcome these obstacles. Good people have come from bad parents. People, like Sanya and Harry, have dropped their coins. She has been in 3 books. In every book she was in, she killed people with a smile on her face and a song in her heart.

[Arjan]

I'm sorry; but, that sounds like deferrring accountability.

Not really. Just trying to find cause and effect. For an individual this is mostly guesswork but you could also research what happens with populations if the environment changes.

Besides it does not really matter. Prison is meant to correct, punish them and keep them from the street. For those that we deem not accountable mental institutions are there to cure them and keep them from the street. And some prisoners belong to mental institutions.

If you really want to make them accountable you have to go back to the old germanic system and ask her wergeld for everyone she has killed to compensate the families.

Everybody is born with limitations on what they can and can't do. How we overcome those hindrances and what we learn and achieve are what define a person. Deidre had evil parents. She had an evil being co-existing inside her body. So, her limitations were greater than any normal person experiences. But, she could have overcome these obstacles. Good people have come from bad parents. People, like Sanya and Harry, have dropped their coins. She has been in 3 books. In every book she was in, she killed people with a smile on her face and a song in her heart.

Some can and some can not, that in itself points to capabilities and lack of them. But to do so you first have to be convinced it is a worthy goal in itself. Whatever mistakes Harry makes he has a moral compass which in itself is an asset not everybody has.

To hold people as much as possible accountable for their deeds is a convention. A useful convention which helps society to function because who else would be responsible and what would people do if they discovered they were not accountable? Because holding people accountable in itself shapes environment and influences people. So continue.

But if you want to examine how people came to their actions and how free their will really was this preconception only gets in the way.

Besides accountability seems to work perfectly well without free will. When we train dogs we hold them accountable for what they do and punish and reward accordingly. Seems to work better than for a lot of humans.

[Ananda]

But if you want to examine how people came to their actions and how free their will really was this preconception only gets in the way.

I've liked your posts on this topic. Just a tangent here (haven't had time to post lately). You may be getting to this point, especially with your dog example, but I thought you might enjoy this talk about how free will does not exist. https://youtu.be/pCofmZlC72g

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Whatever mistakes Harry makes he has a moral compass which in itself is an asset not everybody has.

I'd say moral sense rather than moral compass; he does lean an awful lot on what he feels to be right rather than any particularly consistent overall set of directions.

Besides accountability seems to work perfectly well without free will. When we train dogs we hold them accountable for what they do and punish and reward accordingly. Seems to work better than for a lot of humans.

One of the things that intrigues me about the DV is it being a specified axiom of that universe that humans have far more and more significant free will than I've ever seen people have in real life.

[jonas]

I'd say moral sense rather than moral compass; he does lean an awful lot on what he feels to be right rather than any particularly consistent overall set of directions.

But.. that's why it's a compass and NOT a sense, with a sense it's always there, the compass is for when you get lost like Dresden does lol

One of the things that intrigues me about the DV is it being a specified axiom of that universe that humans have far more and more significant free will than I've ever seen people have in real life.

Not really, everyone has that potential here and there. Just like here, there people apparently don't actually use their free will all that often. But it seems to be free will in the DF, as far as using it goes, is breaking of preset patterns or choices subliminally made.(maybe i'm channeling too much Tim Robbins here lol) Though I've noticed anytime Harry's choice may spin off another reality he usually get's a stark choice.

[wardenferry419]

Maybe I am getting old and set in my ways; but, I take responsibility for my actions. Harry takes responsibility for his actions. He judges himself harshly; he compares his actions with the actions of those he see as noble and good. If he finds himself lacking; then he feels guilt over not being better. Michael and Shiro were his paragons of virtue. McCoy represent what a good wizard should be. When he discovered  Eb's status as Blackstaff; Harry was angry with disappointment. It took a long time for him to reconcile the idea with the man. Now, I am not saying this is the best way to be. But, it is a method of being accountable that I can understand.

[Ananda]

Maybe I am getting old and set in my ways; but, I take responsibility for my actions. Harry takes responsibility for his actions. He judges himself harshly; he compares his actions with the actions of those he see as noble and good. If he finds himself lacking; then he feels guilt over not being better. Michael and Shiro were his paragons of virtue. McCoy represent what a good wizard should be. When he discovered  Eb's status as Blackstaff; Harry was angry with disappointment. It took a long time for him to reconcile the idea with the man. Now, I am not saying this is the best way to be. But, it is a method of being accountable that I can understand.

Thanks for sharing this. I enjoyed reading it.

That said, for me, I find Dresden’s internal dialogue to often be too rigid and even overly simplistic. His ideals about women are absurd. His thinking tends to run too much toward black and white. Though, he has at least shown through actions that he can be more flexible as the series progresses.

I grew tired of his guilt stuff really quickly. The way he applied it seemed to put himself above others in a way. Let me give you an example.

His guilt about Susan becoming a vampirette was all focused on himself. She was an independent person who made her own decisions. She chose to go to the fest even after he warned her. She put a lot of effort into making that choice. It was hers. Yet Dresden took all agency from her by taking all the blame. He needed to get over himself.

[Arjan]

Harry started out pretty immature, it creates space for character development. It is even worse if you read his flashbacks in Ghost Story.

The guilt thing is probably something he and Ebenezar cultivated to counter his inner warlock. It is an over reaction but quite understandable given the circumstances. Breaking the laws has always consequences even if the wardens don’t get you in the end.

It is the reason he refuses to use his magic for personal comfort.

From that point of view it is actually good writing. Harry starts as a messed up person with good intentions but all kinds of bad impulses .

[wardenferry419]

If Harry's internal thoughts seem rigid and overly simplistic; then, it may because his thoughts are alot of guy's thoughts. I know my thoughts are often the same way. I tend to tunnel-vision over broadband. I can identify with his method of thinking.

Yes, Susan is an individual capable of making her own decisions. But, they were decisions lacking the fullest possible understanding of what she was walking into. Susan was given some information; hence, her basket of goodies. But,not enough understanding to secure her safety. And, that is where Harry holds himself responsible and carries his guilt. Harry's knowledge of the supernatural is marginal compared with older wizards; but, it is far greater than what normals understand.

And, he did hold Susan very accountable for keeping Maggie's existence a secret from him.