Nicodemus wants to be God

[wardenferry419]

Doubt it, Deirdre made her bed, now time to take a dirt nap.

[forumghost]

Doubt it, Deirdre made her bed, now time to take a dirt nap.

I doubt that she'll be getting much napping done.

She spent the last few centuries committing horrible atrocities for "The Greater Good" Stop saying that! and the Greeks were big on ironic punishments. So, seeing as she liked to use her hair to blenderize people, she's probably going to spend all of eternity crawling naked through a field of Razor wire.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer girl.

[jonas]

I doubt that she'll be getting much napping done.

She spent the last few centuries committing horrible atrocities for "The Greater Good" Stop saying that! and the Greeks were big on ironic punishments. So, seeing as she liked to use her hair to blenderize people, she's probably going to spend all of eternity crawling naked through a field of Razor wire.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer girl.

I know classically Hades has been big on the physical torments but on this one I hope he goes after her broken psyche more.
Honestly though look at the poor lass, how can she possibly be any more fugged up? Argues with mom, sleeps with dad in a hero worship relationship, not only commits horrible atrocities but casual evils under the guise of greater good? idk man. Hades don't got nothin on what's been done to her on that level... guess that's why he's a physical torment guy, the Greeks were already emotionally disturbed enough.

[Ananda]

Believing in a cause does not make the cause, by itself, good. And, as for eternally punishing someone for an extended lifetime of evil acts that is called accountability.

My point about her sincerity was that she was speaking honestly and openly about herself and her goals. She is not a witless puppet, but a willing participant in giving her life to help save the universe. That she may not have all information is rather beside the point. There and then, she is selfless and willing to sacrifice for the greater good.

On eternal torture and punishment- it’s madness. It’s cruelty unbound. It’s straight vengeance porn. It’s a bizarrely cruel concept for humans to have invented (though, quite effective as a means of control). As the perpetrator of this cruelty, Hades is one of the most twisted characters we’ve met so far in the series. Imagine yourself in such a role, doling out cruelty, pain, torture, unending anguish day after day for years, decades, centuries. What would that make you? I know how the story handled it, but the story indulges the fantasy. The practical reality of such a thing is beyond ugly, however. 

[Arjan]

Historically as far as I remember those punishments were only for a few special cases and the greek gods were never described as all good. For the rest it was just a grey and boring place.

for the real eternal sadism you have to go to later religions.

[groinkick]

My point about her sincerity was that she was speaking honestly and openly about herself and her goals. She is not a witless puppet, but a willing participant in giving her life to help save the universe. That she may not have all information is rather beside the point. There and then, she is selfless and willing to sacrifice for the greater good.

Here is why I think the highlighted section may be wrong.  Nicodemus believes God is going to lose.  He said words to the effect that because God believes in love, he's going to lose.  Nicodemus has some sort of end game.  His end game may be to either rise to a god himself, or to ally with someone who will be a god, or is already a god.  It's also possible he has a plan that will force Hades to give up his daughter.

What I'm saying is I don't believe she is actually sacrificing herself for some greater good.  I believe that the plan is Nicodemus will come back for her, and she will rise again, and be by his side.  Her sacrifice will be a temporary one, and for their own power, and not some greater good.

[wardenferry419]

Historically as far as I remember those punishments were only for a few special cases and the greek gods were never described as all good. For the rest it was just a grey and boring place.

for the real eternal sadism you have to go to later religions.

I think Deirdre warrants special case consideration. But, yep, I agree with Arjan completely.

[Ananda]

Historically as far as I remember those punishments were only for a few special cases and the greek gods were never described as all good. For the rest it was just a grey and boring place.

I’m familiar with the greek pantheon (my favourite plays are from Aeschylus). I was addressing the other posters’ glib take on doling out eternal torture and the practical reality of engaging in it in this fantasy world. It’s very easy to say someone deserves this or that, but, if one thinks what she is saying through, then such casual pronouncements might be more haltingly made or, better yet, not be made at all.

For the greek gods, Niobe is proof enough of what capricious and terrible beings they could be in the myths. I thought the portrayal of Hades was far too congenial. 

for the real eternal sadism you have to go to later religions.

Definitely.

[forumghost]

Eh, Hades was always much more... professional? as far as Greek Gods go. He was mostly too busy making sure the trains in Hades ran on time to stir up trouble the way his brothers did.

Now if Harry had ran into say, Poseidon, then I would expect shit to start flowing downhill at a rapid pace.

[Ananda]

Here is why I think the highlighted section may be wrong.  Nicodemus believes God is going to lose.  He said words to the effect that because God believes in love, he's going to lose.  Nicodemus has some sort of end game.  His end game may be to either rise to a god himself, or to ally with someone who will be a god, or is already a god.  It's also possible he has a plan that will force Hades to give up his daughter.

What I'm saying is I don't believe she is actually sacrificing herself for some greater good.  I believe that the plan is Nicodemus will come back for her, and she will rise again, and be by his side.  Her sacrifice will be a temporary one, and for their own power, and not some greater good.

You’re talking about Nic. I’m talking about Deirdre. She is her own person. I think you’re conflating the two.

Deirdre became aware of the universe’s peril. Deirdre acquired information regarding a way to avoid said peril. Deirdre decided she would sacrifice herself to enact the method. Deirdre committed to and engaged in a selfless act to save the universe.

Nic may have his own counsel, method and motive, but that’s Nic, not Deirdre. Think of the potential for irony if she came back with the jesus mantle and they were at odds, thus proving “The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men Gang aft agley”.

On the topic of Nic, he may be right that the god mantle holder’s plans are incorrect. Maybe he would do a better job in that role? However, more irony potential, the mantle may be one that moulds the holder such as the winter court roles and thus, in the long term, Nic would become what he fought against through his own actions.

[wardenferry419]

IMHO, I cannot see Deirdre as anything more than a delusional, sadistic killer. Now, whether she drank the kool-aid willingly or caved into prolonged peer pressure is debatable. But, an individual that tries to create flesh-confetti out of people with their Medusa-like razor hair is not a nice person nor should they spend their afterlife walking with angels.

[forumghost]

Oh yeah, Deirdre is totally a monster.

The Tragedy of her situation is that she never really had a chance to be anything else- I doubt she was as old as 3 before a Fallen Angel took up residence in her brain. It's like if a child was raised from birth to believe down was up. She really drew a bad hand.

Though I doubt it makes much difference to her, since tragic or not, she's still going to spend the rest of forever trapped in a giant blender set to "puree"

[groinkick]

You’re talking about Nic. I’m talking about Deirdre. She is her own person. I think you’re conflating the two.

Deirdre became aware of the universe’s peril. Deirdre acquired information regarding a way to avoid said peril. Deirdre decided she would sacrifice herself to enact the method. Deirdre committed to and engaged in a selfless act to save the universe.

Again, It's my belief that she thinks she will rise again, and obtain great power.  Therefor her "sacrifice" was nothing about helping people, or the greater good.  It was about being part of a plan that will result in her benefit, the opposite of self sacrifice.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Again, It's my belief that she thinks she will rise again, and obtain great power.

What exactly are you basing belief in the existence of this possibility in the DV on ?

[groinkick]

What exactly are you basing belief in the existence of this possibility in the DV on ?

#1.  She doesn't seem the type for self sacrifice.  Haven't seen any redeeming quality from her the entire series.
#2.  Nicodemus believes God will lose, making me believe he has an idea or plan on why he'll lose.
#3.  Nicodemus stored her soul in a place where their "enemy" can't get it which makes me believe he cannot gain access to hell, but he can return to Hades realm.
#4.  His plan was to obtain many powerful holy relics which uses are unknown but considering that a powerful being who's blood touched them rose from the dead gives reason to believe that they may have the power to raise someone else.
#5.  There is a girl within the series who has been in a coma, and therefor her importance for the story could be her body being used as a vessel.  If she serves no importance, why have her in the story at all?
#6.  Hades is not the power he once was.  Souls are stored in his realm but he does appear to be a being that can make deals, or be simply overpowered, meaning the souls are not in some unbreakable vault.