Author Topic: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?  (Read 18405 times)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2017, 07:17:12 PM »
Harry's choice may have changed the circumstances of Lea's infection, or otherwise hampered her ability to spread it. Lea may be infected, but that doesn't mean Maeve was.

And, I think, it's open to interpretation what "the end" of Grave Peril is from Jim's perspective. I'm still pushing the concept that it was Harry's choice to use Amoracchius dishonorably that was different, though, so I'm pretty biased.
Why would the honourable and good choice lead to a more evil Harry?

At the end of Grave Peril Harry has to choose between Susan resulting in war and peace on the vampires terms as most of the council would have preferred. I think the mirror Harry sacrificed Susan which led to a much darker Harry.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2017, 08:09:48 PM »
Why would the honourable and good choice lead to a more evil Harry?

At the end of Grave Peril Harry has to choose between Susan resulting in war and peace on the vampires terms as most of the council would have preferred. I think the mirror Harry sacrificed Susan which led to a much darker Harry.

Because it has a whole mess of consequences, some of which are good short-term, but most of which are terrible in the long-term. My idea is as follows:

1. Michael went with Harry to get the Sword back. Harry wouldn't have been able to tear him away from Charity without it.
2. If Michael isn't there, Harry can claim Susan as a guest. They're able to vamoose from the party as a result, before the blood starts to spill.
3. Thomas and Justine are left to the vampires. Harry never meets his brother. Justine is eaten or turned. Thomas pretty much gives up or dies himself.
4. Lea is unable to offer a trade for the athame. As a Fae, she can either A) not accept it, or B) offer something else. If she offers something else, then swell, things move on as they did in Prime Harryverse. If she can't accept it, then the athame goes to someone else—maybe even Ferrovax. If Lea isn't infected, neither is Maeve, at least not through that transmission vector. This has obvious long-term effects; Mab isn't given Harry's debt, Maeve doesn't kill Lily—or Aurora isn't killed in the first place. Lloyd Slate may not even be made Winter Knight. Harry certainly isn't.
5. Major badness: the Red Court doesn't declare war too early, and take another five years to get their sucker punch ready. Instead of fighting a disunified, bickering Red Court wherein all the nobles are backstabbing one another, the White Council has to fight back against Pearl Harbors occurring ten times at once. The Reds run roughshod all over the White Council, taking pretty much everyone by surprise. Don't know what happens with Susan, but Harry is too busy putting out fires all over Chicago, constantly, and he's fighting a battle he can't win.

Dark Harry is created over YEARS of fighting a war that was lost the moment he started fighting.

6. Meanwhile, if Lea is and Summer Knight plays out the same way, the White Council isn't at war with the Red Court, so they're not able to shanghai Harry into securing the Ways. Harry ignores the problem like he plans to do at the beginning. Maybe he just delays his involvement by a day. Harry's too late to stop Aurora. Or Mab goes to someone else to fix the problem, and they don't manage to get it done in time.

I can go on, but I'm pressed for time. Basically, my idea is that if Michael isn't at that party and Harry's able to leave, there's a huge ripple effect across the series timeline, and severely bad things happen as a result. Think about how Harry's involvement in the events of each book are absolutely necessary to avoid cataclysmic results, then tweak the details of what he does just enough, and things turn out totally differently, enough to the point that Harry grows a goatee.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2017, 03:07:02 PM »
I'm thinking Harry's choosing not to use the sword in the cemetery really can't be THE CHOICE.  It's not a bad choice.  From that, even based on your steps that follow, there is no reason for Harry to go darker.

His choice will be either to NOT stop the sword from being unmade, or it'll be to not save Susan and subsequently not start a war.  Either of these choices can take Harry into some really dark places.

Of course we won't find out until the book comes out, but I just don't see him going dark by preventing Susan from getting half-turned.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2017, 03:11:33 PM »
His choice will be either to NOT stop the sword from being unmade, or it'll be to not save Susan and subsequently not start a war.  Either of these choices can take Harry into some really dark places.
Or the choice to not say he loves Susan, which has consequences that spiral for him.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2017, 04:41:10 PM »
Or the choice to not say he loves Susan, which has consequences that spiral for him.

I agree.  It could be that, but I lump that into deciding not to save her.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2017, 06:08:06 PM »
See, that's one I have a lot of trouble picturing. There's just no way that Harry chooses to not save Susan, in my opinion. Harry just does it, because it's not really a question. I'd think that the choice would be presented more as a choice rather than the thing Harry does next, if that makes sense.

I left out a big, big, BIG alternate piece of my idea that I completely forgot to articulate because I'm not as smart as I think I am: Harry chooses to go with Lea in the graveyard rather than trying to use the Sword to get out of it. Susan goes, gets eaten, badness happens. Harry gets out of being a hound some other way, but the Nemesis infection goes elsewhere—somewhere way worse, like to Mr. Ferro—because Lea's busy with her new toy, the war is delayed long enough for the sucker punch to land hard, and Harry spends the following decade fighting and losing.


Offline Rasins

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2017, 06:23:39 PM »
Kindler - the only hang up I have with that is that it's not close enough to the end of the book, based on what Jim said.

I'm not saying it can't be, but it just doesn't sit right with me.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2017, 06:42:12 PM »
Did I imply it was all powerful?

A spiritual infection is nothing new. Touching a denarian coin is enough to infect you and Lash did change Harry though not in the way intended.

Nemesis is also a spiritual infection that can change your nature, your spirit. It gives Maeve the ability to lie which she s against her nature. Her nature, her spirit was changed nu the infection. And that infection was carried nu an object of power.

Corrupting a person, and a spirit/shade/soul are different things.  If Harry's body is destroyed, his soul carries on.  Why would corrupting a persons mind corrupt their spirit/shade/soul?  Leah was saved by Mab from Nemesis.  Was her spirit purified?  why?

Can you show evidence that a person can be corrupted beyond the grave from Nemesis?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 06:46:23 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2017, 10:16:39 PM »
Corrupting a person, and a spirit/shade/soul are different things.  If Harry's body is destroyed, his soul carries on.  Why would corrupting a persons mind corrupt their spirit/shade/soul?  Leah was saved by Mab from Nemesis.  Was her spirit purified?  why?

Can you show evidence that a person can be corrupted beyond the grave from Nemesis?
We do not have that many nemesis cases and not one of them after dead. But we can discuss analogies and we have some evidence about body, spirit and soul.

Remember that soul and spirit are connected but different things. Corrupting a spirit is easier than corrupting the soul but someone with a corrupted spirit will probably make decisions that change his soul.

And we do have Harry and when he died the things changed by Lash did not suddenly disappear. Corpstaker was still a blackened warlock and so on. We know Nemesis can change a persons nature and that means their spirit.

So it stands to reason that if a person sufficiently changed by Nemesis died that person is not suddenly free from what Nemesis did to his spirit because Nemesis changes your spirit.

Moreover as Lea made clear in ghost story the Sidhe live in both worlds, the body and the spiritual. A mere change in mind without a change in spirit would not have fooled her.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 10:30:56 PM by Arjan »
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2017, 12:19:53 AM »
See, that's one I have a lot of trouble picturing. There's just no way that Harry chooses to not save Susan, in my opinion.
What if he didn't say "I love you" to Susan, who then tries to kill him, neglects to because of the poison in his bloodstream, and instead kills Justine?  And then Harry chooses to leave the newly turned Susan with Bianca, thus avoiding war and buying himself time to try and find a cure?

Offline groinkick

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2017, 04:09:15 AM »
We do not have that many nemesis cases and not one of them after dead. But we can discuss analogies and we have some evidence about body, spirit and soul.

Remember that soul and spirit are connected but different things. Corrupting a spirit is easier than corrupting the soul but someone with a corrupted spirit will probably make decisions that change his soul.

And we do have Harry and when he died the things changed by Lash did not suddenly disappear. Corpstaker was still a blackened warlock and so on. We know Nemesis can change a persons nature and that means their spirit.

So it stands to reason that if a person sufficiently changed by Nemesis died that person is not suddenly free from what Nemesis did to his spirit because Nemesis changes your spirit.

Moreover as Lea made clear in ghost story the Sidhe live in both worlds, the body and the spiritual. A mere change in mind without a change in spirit would not have fooled her.

Have to disagree, but to each his own.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2017, 06:08:39 AM »
Have to disagree, but to each his own.
It was Lea who learned Harry to look at his spiritual memories to see his memories as they really were and not how they were often incorrectly stored in his brain. Ghost story.

The Sidhe are for a big part spiritual beings living in the spirit world with one foot here. A mere change in the brain is not enough.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2017, 07:52:49 AM »
What if he didn't say "I love you" to Susan, who then tries to kill him, neglects to because of the poison in his bloodstream, and instead kills Justine?  And then Harry chooses to leave the newly turned Susan with Bianca, thus avoiding war and buying himself time to try and find a cure?
And, if the war is delayed then Simon might exist in the alternative reality. If Simon did exist then Harry, as one of the few to intereact with Cowl, might connect Simon with Cowl.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2017, 03:14:55 PM »
What if he didn't say "I love you" to Susan, who then tries to kill him, neglects to because of the poison in his bloodstream, and instead kills Justine?  And then Harry chooses to leave the newly turned Susan with Bianca, thus avoiding war and buying himself time to try and find a cure?

I can get behind something like that; I was thinking the choice was "I'm not going to go back for Susan because I'll die" or something similar.

I think that the choice might be one that is based on unintended consequences; Harry makes a choice that should be better because it conforms to a higher ideal of right and wrong, but walking the Light path causes long-term Darkness. Harry willingly does the hard thing, the stuff that isn't heroic, because Good is Not Nice. Like beating the tar out of Cassius to get the information he needed. Kind of making a what-if scenario, one Harry might've second-guessed frequently ("If only I hadn't used the Sword," "If only I hadn't drunk the wine," "If only I had listened to Thomas,"), but ultimately proving that the choice that looks wrong wound up turning out for the best. Does that make sense to anyone else?

And, if the war is delayed then Simon might exist in the alternative reality. If Simon did exist then Harry, as one of the few to intereact with Cowl, might connect Simon with Cowl.

Well yeah, I'm definitely behind that. One of the things I think is certainly going to have happened in Mirror, Mirror is that the war was delayed, and wound up way more devastating to the White Council because of it. Simon living through it isn't something I'd considered.

Well... dang. Ebenezer isn't on the Senior Council in that case. So Molly... hmm. That's a big, bad ripple effect.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Will Harry meet the real Maeve?
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2017, 04:10:48 PM »
Yeah, I get it Kindler, but I'm thinking it's a decision, a big decision, that we see, and that makes sense in the circumstances.  Like at the end to let Susan go and not start the war.
At times I wish I had a clone, but then I realize, I could never live with that a-hole.

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